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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 29, 2004, 02:48pm
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Thats a very educational posting (for me especially),would it be best to bring up (leaping) at the pre-game meeting and explaining it clearly and quickly to the opposing coaches from the start?
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 29, 2004, 02:55pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roger Bridges
Thats a very educational posting (for me especially),would it be best to bring up (leaping) at the pre-game meeting and explaining it clearly and quickly to the opposing coaches from the start?
I doubt I would do it. I would wait until it was a "good time" to talk to the coaches individually and let them know how we are going to handle the situation. Some coaches won't even say a thing about the leap/crow-hop, etc. Those that do, let them know you see it and let them know that you've take care of it after it happens.
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 30, 2004, 01:15pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roger Bridges
Thats a very educational posting (for me especially),would it be best to bring up (leaping) at the pre-game meeting and explaining it clearly and quickly to the opposing coaches from the start?
Why? Is leaping a ground rule in your area?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 30, 2005, 12:10pm
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Unhappy umps & fear of calling leap/crowhopping, why?

Quote:
Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Roger,

Welcome to the board.

I think you were the one who mentioned leaping.

Speaking ASA,

If the pitcher is a female, she must maintain contact with the pitcher's plate or drag away with the pivot foot remaining in contact with the ground, just like it states in the rule book.

If the pitcher is a male, he may leap without penalty as long as the toes of the pivot foot remain pointing down.

In no case may any pitcher replant prior to releasing the pitch.

Why Irish, since you're a senior ump, aren't the umps mandated to call the illegal pitches, or not be allowed to ump, since they are condoning cheating? It's said here, "We(umps) see with our eyes(closed ones?). Parents/fans see with their hearts." How true is that,& why is this allowed? Even CatO. was leaping/hopping, as pointed out by L.Fernandez on live ESPN TV,"Oops that was a hop",& it wasn't called!? Please Help!
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 30, 2005, 06:59pm
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Re: umps & fear of calling leap/crowhopping, why?

Quote:
Originally posted by nubie
Quote:
Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Roger,

Welcome to the board.

I think you were the one who mentioned leaping.

Speaking ASA,

If the pitcher is a female, she must maintain contact with the pitcher's plate or drag away with the pivot foot remaining in contact with the ground, just like it states in the rule book.

If the pitcher is a male, he may leap without penalty as long as the toes of the pivot foot remain pointing down.

In no case may any pitcher replant prior to releasing the pitch.

Why Irish, since you're a senior ump, aren't the umps mandated to call the illegal pitches, or not be allowed to ump, since they are condoning cheating?

Please show me where I made any statement like that
Quote:

It's said here, "We(umps) see with our eyes(closed ones?). Parents/fans see with their hearts." How true is that,& why is this allowed? Even CatO. was leaping/hopping, as pointed out by L.Fernandez on live ESPN TV,"Oops that was a hop",& it wasn't called!? Please Help!
To what game are you referring?

As an umpire, you watch and don't watch what the UIC indicates. Unless I'm privy to that information first hand, I'm not crucifying an umpire for not making an IP call.

Lisa Fernandez was no saint on the plate either, though her style is nothing like Cat's. When Cat first started at UT, it took slow-motion replay to see the replant.

It's a whole different story when you have nothing else to do but watch the pitcher's feet via an electronic transmission using different angles than the umpire is permitted. Personally, I don't know how anyone can take anything that comes from the talking heads during an ESPN softball broadcast seriously.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 01, 2005, 02:10pm
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Re: umps & fear of calling leap/crowhopping, why?

Quote:
Originally posted by nubie
Quote:
Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Roger,

Welcome to the board.

I think you were the one who mentioned leaping.

Speaking ASA,

If the pitcher is a female, she must maintain contact with the pitcher's plate or drag away with the pivot foot remaining in contact with the ground, just like it states in the rule book.

If the pitcher is a male, he may leap without penalty as long as the toes of the pivot foot remain pointing down.

In no case may any pitcher replant prior to releasing the pitch.

Why Irish, since you're a senior ump, aren't the umps mandated to call the illegal pitches, or not be allowed to ump, since they are condoning cheating? It's said here, "We(umps) see with our eyes(closed ones?). Parents/fans see with their hearts." How true is that,& why is this allowed? Even CatO. was leaping/hopping, as pointed out by L.Fernandez on live ESPN TV,"Oops that was a hop",& it wasn't called!? Please Help!
One of my good friends, who is also a good young umpire, uses the "We see with our eyes. Parents/fans see with their hearts." No, he doesn't see with closed ones.

I would hope that you are using your time watching ESPN or whoever else to become a student of the game. Unfortunately, we don't see a lot of umpiring "stuff" on there (unless they do something bad, then we see it...).

I'm not certain, but I would bet Lisa Fernandez has never attended an umpiring clinic. Depending upon Lisa to make an IP call would be similar to letting Tim McCarver umpire the World Series. Don't depend on what you hear from folks on TV.

If you have questions about what does and doesn't constitute an IP, ask your local UIC. That is what your UIC is for.

And you can bet dollars to donuts that if Cat was illegal, they would have been calling it.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 01, 2005, 05:24pm
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I have to disagree with you John

Your "good, young umpire" friend always has his eyes closed. J/K

But seriously, I'm not so sure that they would call her, or any other NCAA pitcher for IP. I watched as much of the College World Series as I could and saw IPs in every game (mostly leaps), but I give you 1 guess on how many times I saw it called. That's right - a big, fat gooseegg, nada, zip, zilch.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 02, 2005, 11:09am
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By the book, many college pitchers have an illegal motion. In addition to a leap, some have a fairly obvious replant and second push that they use on occasion. Cat O, who takes the brunt of the web board bashing, has a very skillful and difficult to see in real time, but obvious in still photos, leap/replant. But she is far from alone.

JMO, but she gets the criticism because she is such an outstanding pitcher who had the temerity to not pitch for a Pac-10 college, instead pitching for a UT team that without her would be mediocre. With her, they are a contender in the WCWS (in case you were wondering, Mike, that stands for Women's College World Series!)

But, I digress...

Getting back to the main point. If many college pitchers have a motion that is illegal by the book, and yet it is not being called, why is that?

It is not some umpire conspiracy. It is not evidence of umpire cowardace. It is, in fact, (I believe) evidence of umpires doing their job. IOW, the NCAA does not want these motions called illegal. It is their game, their rules, their instructions to umpires.

I know that is a tough argument to make on eteamz, with the Sam's of the world and that nut from Nebraska around, but (speaking as someone who does not call college, but basing this on many of the umpires I know who do), I beleive this to be the truth.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 02, 2005, 01:20pm
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Tom,

Not arguing with you, but if it is in the book as illegal, then why would they not remove it from the book if the NCAA doesn't want it called? I don't have an opinion either way (should it be in the book or not), but if it is there, it is foolish to direct NCAA umpires to not call the rule. Do you agree?
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 02, 2005, 01:39pm
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The rules are written in the book to provide the format for the game. The NCAA never will come out and say to NOT call the rules as written. What they do say, and mean for the umpires to understand, is that fine-line distinctions that are so close to legal as to require slow motion or stop action photography to discern legality should NOT be called.

Crow hops and leaping are illegal pitches; and when clearly observed, they should and must be called, even in NCAA championship play. These should, if called, be black and white, and clearly obvious, so that consistency in interpretation and enforcement is achieved. If there is any doubt, then the pitch is to be considered legal.

That is my understanding; I can't speak for the NCAA Umpire Development Program.
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 02, 2005, 01:40pm
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I would guess that the rule is kept in place to put the lid on EXTREME abuses of the pitching rules.

Can you imagine what we might see if the rule was stricken from the books? With no restriction at all, a pitcher could start her move from the plate with something resembling a standing broad competition. She could fling herself ten feet forward from the rubber, then deliver her pitch.

Contrast that with what Cat does, which involves the pivot foot getting a couple of inches above the ground (sometimes- she looked pretty good and legal during the World Cup telecasts this summer) and can usually only be detected on slo-mo instant replay.
  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 02, 2005, 01:57pm
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Wink

Quote:
Originally posted by BretMan

Can you imagine what we might see if the rule was stricken from the books? With no restriction at all, a pitcher could start her move from the plate with something resembling a standing broad competition. She could fling herself ten feet forward from the rubber, then deliver her pitch.
In other words, men's fastpitch
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 02, 2005, 02:21pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by AtlUmpSteve
...What they do say, and mean for the umpires to understand, is that fine-line distinctions that are so close to legal as to require slow motion or stop action photography to discern legality should NOT be called.

Crow hops and leaping are illegal pitches; and when clearly observed, they should and must be called, even in NCAA championship play. These should, if called, be black and white, and clearly obvious, so that consistency in interpretation and enforcement is achieved. If there is any doubt, then the pitch is to be considered legal...
Thanks... that's pretty much what I was trying to say. You said it better.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 02, 2005, 03:18pm
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Re: I have to disagree with you John

Quote:
Originally posted by streamdoc
Your "good, young umpire" friend always has his eyes closed. J/K
I only have my eyes closed when I'm working with you. Usually my closed eyes are accompanied with a slight head shaking ... as if to say "I can't believe he called that."

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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 02, 2005, 03:42pm
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bkbjones: "In other words, men's fastpitch"

No, the crowhop is still illegal in men's FP.

I downloaded IP training video clips from the NFHS web site; one of which uses a male coach to demonstrate the crow hop. Now this is a major league crow hop!

He takes a big step back with his stride foot; shift his weight back and lifts the pivot foot off the plate. He then drives forward with his stride foot and lands the pivot foot at least 3' in front of the plate. Then his hands part and he goes into his pitching motion. I think there is even a Leap after that as his pivot foot again leaves the ground before going into the drag. His delivery is well past the 8' circle.

IMO, a crow hop is the replanting of the pivot foot closer to home before the pitching motion starts. (This is what ASA and NFHS tells it's umpires to look for in their POE's on IP's.) Those that keep finding something devious in the action of the pivot foot at the end of the drag are wrong IMO. If the pivot foot does dig into the ground at the end of the drag and helps the pitcher achieve the final push and to close her hips, then that is simply part of a good pitching motion.

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