On-deck Batter Hit by Thrown Ball

[bbsbvb83]

NFHS Rules Only Please
With a runner at first base, the batter hits safely to center field. F8 overthrows F4. The overthrown ball rolls into foul territory near the on-deck circle and hits the on-deck batter. There is no obvious play on either runner.

Is this still a live ball or an immediate dead ball and what rule applies?

7-5-4 states "The on-deck batter shall not commit interference with the defensive team," but I'm not convinced this situation meets the definition of interference.

[Crabby_Bob]

It is interference and the ball should be declared dead. Have a look at Penalty 1.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob

It is interference and the ball should be declared dead. Have a look at Penalty 1.

What was it exactly that the on-deck batter did to warrant an INT call?

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

What was it exactly that the on-deck batter did to warrant an INT call?

Interfere with a thrown ball. On-deck batter doesn't have the same rights as a runner. OP states that there was no play so put runners back to the last base touched.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob

Interfere with a thrown ball. On-deck batter doesn't have the same rights as a runner. OP states that there was no play so put runners back to the last base touched.

Well, you didn't answer my question.

Suppose R1 attempted to go to 3B and F8's throw skipped by F5 and hit the coach in the coach's box. Has the coach committed INT?

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Suppose R1 attempted to go to 3B and F8's throw skipped by F5 and hit the coach in the coach's box. Has the coach committed INT?

Are you equating a base coach to an on-deck batter?

[Tru_in_Blu]

That's 2 questions you haven't answered.

To answer yours: 8-6-16
Any coach or member of the offensive team, other than a runner...

So a coach, on deck batter, bat/ball shagger would all be considered "members of the offensive team".

An on deck batter is permitted to be out of the on deck circle to direct a runner attempting to score. In a sense, acting as another coach.

[Crabby_Bob]

Here's the entire 8-6-16b:

Any coach or member of the offensive team, other than a runner, interferes with a defensive player's opportunity to make a play. This includes, but is not limited to: b) A coach intentionally interferes with a thrown ball while in the coach's box, or interferes with a defensive team's opportunity to make a play on another runner.

My emphasis. The thrust of 8-6-16 does not require intent nor is it limited to subsections A-D.

You are correct that the on-deck batter may leave to direct runners advancing from third base to home. This brings the on-deck batter close to the play much like a base coach, except there is no coach's box.

Regarding the On-Deck Batter:

7-5-4 The on-deck batter shall not commit interference with the defensive team. Penalty 1. When the interference is with a thrown or pitched ball, the ball is dead and the runner closest to home is out. If no play is obvious, no player is out, but runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of interference. Penalty 2. When the interference is with a fair batted or foul fly ball, the batter is out. [...]

Intent is not required.

The OP stated: "With a runner at first base, the batter hits safely to center field. F8 overthrows F4. The overthrown ball rolls into foul territory near the on-deck circle and hits the on-deck batter. There is no obvious play on either runner."

The on-deck batter is normally in the on-deck circle doing warm-up stuff. The on-deck circle usually has near perfect vision of the field and the action. An on-deck batter paying any attention whatsoever would never get hit by a ball thrown from center field. It's simply incumbent upon the on-deck batter to stay out of playing action.
Yet, it happened to the OP's on-deck batter, a member of the offensive team. Suppose the ball deflects away in live ball territory and runners keep advancing. How many bases should they be allowed to take? All of them? None?

[Tru_in_Blu]

An on-deck batter paying any attention whatsoever would never get hit by a ball thrown from center field. It's simply incumbent upon the on-deck batter to stay out of playing action.

So the argument is that an inattentive on deck batter who is doing nothing but standing in the on deck circle and ends up being hit by a deflected or off-line thrown ball has COMMITTED an act that warrants an INT call.

Sorry, not buying that. But with proper rule citation, I could be convinced otherwise.

If the on deck batter actually DOES something like bends over and picks the ball up or kicks it, then we have something to rule on. By your logic, the coach should never be hit by a thrown ball because s/he should be paying close attention and also has a clear view of the entire field.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

[COLOR="Red"][snip] By your logic, the coach should never be hit by a thrown ball because s/he should be paying close attention and also has a clear view of the entire field.

I don't think so. The statement above completely disregards the proximity of the base coach to the action, all of it: the base, fielders, runners, and a throw. It is his JOB to direct the runners. The base coach is also specifically absolved of interference with a thrown ball unless intentional.

The rule (7-5-4) and penalty has been cited several times. I believe it correctly anticipates and applies to the situation OP presented.

The case play literature is silent on this in several codes. All that remains is to agree to disagree. Peace.

[ETA] This discussion brings up something I haven't seen addressed anywhere. What protections, if any, from interfering with a throw does an on-deck batter have when legally directing runners advancing from third to home?

[Tru_in_Blu]

For anyone interested, there is some spirited debate in another forum from a few years ago.

https://www.discussfastpitch.com/thr...-batter.37036/

[Duke]

Crabby has it. Immediate dead ball. OP judges no obvious play on a runner. No outs. Put runners back to last base touched at time of the dead ball call.
7-5-4 Pen 1.

[bbsbvb83]

Here is my take on the situation in the OP...

The reason, or at least one reason, the ball contacted the on-deck batter is because of the poor throw from F8. In my opinion, just because the on-deck batter is hit with F8's poor throw does not, in and of itself, constitute interference on the part of the on-deck batter as it does not automatically meet the definition of interference. NFHS rule 2-32-1 defines interference as "an act by a member of the team at bat who illegally impedes, hinders, or confuses any fielder..." Simply being hit by a poorly thrown ball does not necessarily impede, hinder, or confuse any fielder. In fact, depending on how the ball deflects off the on-deck batter, the defense could potentially benefit as a result. As such, I do not think we can automatically rule interference has occurred in the OP, but it is certainly a possibility. Unfortunately, the NFHS has not seen fit to provide any specific guidance regarding rule 7-5-4 or the corresponding penalties in the case book.

Some posters seem to believe that interference and an immediate dead ball should be ruled any time the on-deck batter is hit by a thrown ball. For those posters, please consider the following play which happened during an error-filled junior high game with light rain.

Runner at third base only with one out. Ground ball to F5. Runner begins to advance to home plate as F5 fields the ground ball. F5 makes a sidearm throw, but the slick ball slips from her hand and is thrown on a line from F5 to the on-deck circle where the on-deck batter is struck in the helmet. The on-deck circle is half way between home plate and third base and twenty feet from the third base line. At the time the ball hit the on-deck batter, the runner was well over half way home.

Would you rule interference in the above situation also?

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by bbsbvb83

Some posters seem to believe that interference and an immediate dead ball should be ruled any time the on-deck batter is hit by a thrown ball. For those posters, please consider the following play which happened during an error-filled junior high game with light rain.

Runner at third base only with one out. Ground ball to F5. Runner begins to advance to home plate as F5 fields the ground ball. F5 makes a sidearm throw, but the slick ball slips from her hand and is thrown on a line from F5 to the on-deck circle where the on-deck batter is struck in the helmet. The on-deck circle is half way between home plate and third base and twenty feet from the third base line. At the time the ball hit the on-deck batter, the runner was well over half way home.

Would you rule interference in the above situation also?

"Those posters" (Duke & Crabby) are so far silent on your recent scenario. I cannot speak for them.

I personally would not call INT in that situation. The rule states that the on deck batter may not interfere (USA Softball) & the on deck batter shall not commit interference (NFHS). The penalties and their severity are a little different, also. Hard to "reward" the defense for such poor execution.

Unless USA and/or NFHS provides a clear interpretation on this subject, my judgment will not render an INT call in either the OP or this latest scenario. It could invite open season on the on deck batter(s).

[Tru_in_Blu]

If the ball becomes blocked due to offensive equipment not involved in the game.

Effect:
a. The ball is dead.
b. Runners are returned to the last base touched at the time of the blocked
ball.
c. If the blocked ball prevented the defense from making an out, the runner
being played on is out.

If a thrown ball enters the on deck circle (which the on deck batter has vacated) and contacts one or two bats that the on deck batter left there, do we have a blocked ball?

What if a thrown ball hits the batter's discarded bat?