The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 09, 2013, 01:09pm
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,377
Lead-off Batter = On-Deck Batter?

Okay, so this might sound like an inane question. But here goes:

NFHS. In between innings, how many batters may the offense have outside the dugout swinging a bat? As PU, I'm constantly policing areas in front of the offense's dugout when I see the lead-off batter and the upcoming on-deck batter taking their cuts. I tell them, "Only one batter out of the dugout, Coach." In response, I'm met with looks of utter confusion.

Looking at the NFHS rule book under 2-5-3, it says, "A single on-deck batter shall remain in her team's on-deck circle while the opposing pitcher is warming up." To me, that means the lead-off batter is the only player allowed outside the dugout swinging the bat.

Or does it?

The definition of On-deck Batter in 2-5-3 doesn't really help. It just says it's the player entitled to occupy the on-deck circle. Great; that's really on point...
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 09, 2013, 01:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post

Looking at the NFHS rule book under 2-5-3, it says, "A single on-deck batter shall remain in her team's on-deck circle while the opposing pitcher is warming up." To me, that means the lead-off batter is the only player allowed outside the dugout swinging the bat.
In PA, that's our interpretation. As an example, to start the game, the lead off hitter is the only one allowed in the on-deck circle while the home team is warming up. And taking this one step further, if there are no on-deck circles on the field (which is surprisingly all the schools in my county), no one is permitted on the field during warm ups.

Your state association may vary.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 09, 2013, 01:19pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: East Central, FL
Posts: 1,042
FHSAA clinics I have attended made it clear that only rhe next batter is allowed out between innings (1 player or however you want to say it).
I remember a clinic where one of the teams was asked to intentionally put two players out to see the response of the umpires being evaluated...
(I passed that part of the evaluation).
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 09, 2013, 01:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Slick View Post
In PA, that's our interpretation. As an example, to start the game, the lead off hitter is the only one allowed in the on-deck circle while the home team is warming up. And taking this one step further, if there are no on-deck circles on the field (which is surprisingly all the schools in my county), no one is permitted on the field during warm ups.

Your state association may vary.
The rule does say "single on-deck batter" as quoted; but is this OOO.

However, I think the on deck circle like the batter box and other things exist even if there is no visible line.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 09, 2013, 01:38pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: East Central, FL
Posts: 1,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
The rule does say "single on-deck batter" as quoted; but is this OOO.

However, I think the on deck circle like the batter box and other things exist even if there is no visible line.
Several years ago, our local commisioner advocated "no circle/no in-deck batter", but no one I know worries about that these days. We do keep them away from the batterers box an foul line.

On the other hand, I don't agree that enforcing the next batter only rule as emphasized by my State Association is OOO.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 09, 2013, 02:05pm
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,377
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
The rule does say "single on-deck batter" as quoted; but is this OOO.
It may be. But I've seen teams on occasion with more than two batters out there (e.g., lead-off, on-deck, in-the-hole). We've got to draw the line somewhere, or teams will just trot out their entire roster to take a few cuts as opposed to having them jog to the foul pole and back.

I was just trying to verify NFHS's intent here. The rule book doesn't make it clear if only the lead-off batter, or the lead-off batter and the on-deck batter, is allowed.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 09, 2013, 02:19pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 2,672
The lead off batter each inning is the current batter. The on deck batter is the one who follows her. I have always allowed both of them out of the dugout between innings, but no more than those two. Never been instructed otherwise.

We had a local 12u coach a few years back that wanted his entire team out of the dugout swinging bats between innings as an intimidation factor. We put an end to that pretty quick....
__________________
It's what you learn after you think you know it all that's important!
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 09, 2013, 05:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NY
Posts: 763
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
The rule does say "single on-deck batter" as quoted; but is this OOO.

However, I think the on deck circle like the batter box and other things exist even if there is no visible line.
This is not over-officious at all. It is a safety concern and safety ought to be your first priority. Umpires need to enforce the rule without fault. On-deck circle exist for a reason. Team members shouldn't have to worry about when another on-deck batter may come out and swing illegally.

If you see it and let it go and someone gets hurt, good luck.
__________________
Kill the Clones. Let God sort them out.
No one likes an OOJ (Over-officious jerk).
Realistic officiating does the sport good.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 09, 2013, 06:42pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Metro Atlanta
Posts: 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp View Post
on-deck batter may come out and swing illegally.
Can't definition of Illegal Swing.
__________________
Tony
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 10, 2013, 10:19am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 962
I'm coming a little late to the party here but I agree only one player with a bat out of the dugout. And I'm pretty sure that was the intent from NFHS with regard to how the rule is inforced. Again a safety issue, somewhere the 2nd batter due up that inning hit the lead off batter in the back of the head with a practice swing knocking her out.

As it has been told to me one circle, one batter in it. Funny story about that, ASA 18U GOLD qualifier in my state last year I enforced this and got the 'are you kidding me' sort of response and 'never heard that before' etc. After telling the coach a second time and him getting more arguementitive I asked him "do you REALLY want to argue this with me?" He finally realized this was a moot point and not that big of a deal and not worth fighting over. So now fast forward ahead a couple of months and move to OKC at the GOLD Championship. Guess who the plate umpire is for this same teams 2nd pool play game....yep Karma is a weird thing huh? Was hilarious, coach recognized me and after the plate conference I heard him walk up to his dugout and say "Ok girls only one batter out of the dugout swinging a bat at a time." I had to laugh, guess he figured out it wasn't worth fighting over in that couple months!!
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 10, 2013, 06:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NY
Posts: 763
ON-DECK BATTER & DUGOUT CONDUCT

The on-deck batter is defined as “the offensive player who is scheduled to bat next.” At the beginning of the game and at the start of the inning, the on-beck batter is the offensive player who is going to lead off that inning. Rule 1.

The on-deck circle is defined as “the area nearest their dugout in which the next batter of the offensive team is restricted to before the release of the pitch.” Rule 1.

“Coaches, players, substitutes, and other bench personnel shall not be outside the designated bench, dugout/team area except when the rule allows or is justified by the umpire.” Effect: “The first offense is a team warning. Any repeat offense shall result in the ejection of that team member.” Rule 5-12.

“Once the game begins, only players involved in the game may be outside the dugout, except when the rule allows or the reason is justified by an umpire.” Rules Supplement 16. “Players involved in the game” are limited to batters, runners, student base coaches, etc. An example of a situation “justified by an umpire” is a substitute pitcher warming up with another player. Additional offensive player warm-ups outside the dugout is not an exception to these explicit rules.

“The on-deck batter shall take a position within the lines of the on-deck circle nearest the offensive team area.” Rule 7-1-A

“The on-deck batter may leave the on-deck circle: (1) when they become the batter; (2) when directing runners advancing from third to home plate.” Rule 7-1-C-(1) & (2).

The primary reason for requiring an on-deck batter – To keep the game flowing. Requiring an on-deck batter eliminates the need for allowing the on-deck batter to take multiple warm-up swings once she gets in the batter’s box. Use of the on-deck batter is also a tool for the offensive coaching staff to confirm who is going to bat next and that this player is, in fact, ready to bat.

By rule, there can only be one on-deck batter. That is so because there can only be one “next” batter. At the start of the game and the beginning of a new half inning, only one on-deck batter is permitted. Allowing more than one offensive player to swing a bat at this time is improper, violative of the rules, and creates a significant risk of liability.

Use of an on-deck batter is required. The on-deck batter is restricted to the on-deck circle. Generally, the circle (assuming one is drawn), will be located near each team’s dugout. If as a result of safety concerns, the umpire deems the use of an on-deck circle on the field is potentially dangerous, the umpire may designate an alternative area off the field.

All coaches, players, substitutes, and bench personnel are required to be in the dugout unless another rules allows them to be outside that area (e.g., use of a 1st and 3rd base coach, on-deck batter, runners, etc.) Players and bench personnel shall not be permitted to leave the dugout in order to hit off tees, do soft toss, use a hitting stick, etc. To allow otherwise would be to violate the on-deck batter rule and the dugout conduct rule. Moreover, it would tend to defeat the purpose of requiring an on-deck batter in the first place – To keep the game moving. In addition, use of these additional warm-up techniques creates significant liability issues. Frequently, these so-called “double-deck” or “triple-deck” batters do not wear required protective gear. There is also the risk that spectators, classmates, etc. could get hit by one of the additional on-deck batters. Remember, while umpires could be liable for not enforcing clearly established and codified rules, coaches and schools are potentially even more liable than umpires. That is because coaches and schools have assumed additional responsibilities of a supervisory nature.

Strict enforcement of the on-deck batter rules by both umpires and coaches will help keep the game moving smoothly and limit potential liability.
__________________
Kill the Clones. Let God sort them out.
No one likes an OOJ (Over-officious jerk).
Realistic officiating does the sport good.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 10, 2013, 06:34pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 1,640
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED View Post
Funny story about that, ASA 18U GOLD qualifier in my state last year I enforced this and got the 'are you kidding me' sort of response and 'never heard that before' etc.
I get the same "are you kidding me" response when I limit it to one on-deck batter swinging a bat...or disallow the lead-off batter to get right next to the batter's box while the pitcher is throwing warm-up pitches...or stop an oblivious lead-off batter from strolling around behind the catcher, to get next to the opposite batter's box while the pitcher warms up...or when an on-deck batter wants to go into the on-deck circle next to the other team's dugout.

"I've never heard that before!"

Well, just because you've never heard it before doesn't mean that it isn't an actual rule that we're going to be enforcing today. Come to think of it, most umpires around here are so lax in enforcing this that maybe they never have heard of it before.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 11, 2013, 07:01am
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,377
Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp View Post
ON-DECK BATTER & DUGOUT CONDUCT

The on-deck batter is defined as “the offensive player who is scheduled to bat next.” At the beginning of the game and at the start of the inning, the on-beck batter is the offensive player who is going to lead off that inning. Rule 1.

The on-deck circle is defined as “the area nearest their dugout in which the next batter of the offensive team is restricted to before the release of the pitch.” Rule 1.

“Coaches, players, substitutes, and other bench personnel shall not be outside the designated bench, dugout/team area except when the rule allows or is justified by the umpire.” Effect: “The first offense is a team warning. Any repeat offense shall result in the ejection of that team member.” Rule 5-12.

“Once the game begins, only players involved in the game may be outside the dugout, except when the rule allows or the reason is justified by an umpire.” Rules Supplement 16. “Players involved in the game” are limited to batters, runners, student base coaches, etc. An example of a situation “justified by an umpire” is a substitute pitcher warming up with another player. Additional offensive player warm-ups outside the dugout is not an exception to these explicit rules.

“The on-deck batter shall take a position within the lines of the on-deck circle nearest the offensive team area.” Rule 7-1-A

“The on-deck batter may leave the on-deck circle: (1) when they become the batter; (2) when directing runners advancing from third to home plate.” Rule 7-1-C-(1) & (2).

The primary reason for requiring an on-deck batter – To keep the game flowing. Requiring an on-deck batter eliminates the need for allowing the on-deck batter to take multiple warm-up swings once she gets in the batter’s box. Use of the on-deck batter is also a tool for the offensive coaching staff to confirm who is going to bat next and that this player is, in fact, ready to bat.

By rule, there can only be one on-deck batter. That is so because there can only be one “next” batter. At the start of the game and the beginning of a new half inning, only one on-deck batter is permitted. Allowing more than one offensive player to swing a bat at this time is improper, violative of the rules, and creates a significant risk of liability.

Use of an on-deck batter is required. The on-deck batter is restricted to the on-deck circle. Generally, the circle (assuming one is drawn), will be located near each team’s dugout. If as a result of safety concerns, the umpire deems the use of an on-deck circle on the field is potentially dangerous, the umpire may designate an alternative area off the field.

All coaches, players, substitutes, and bench personnel are required to be in the dugout unless another rules allows them to be outside that area (e.g., use of a 1st and 3rd base coach, on-deck batter, runners, etc.) Players and bench personnel shall not be permitted to leave the dugout in order to hit off tees, do soft toss, use a hitting stick, etc. To allow otherwise would be to violate the on-deck batter rule and the dugout conduct rule. Moreover, it would tend to defeat the purpose of requiring an on-deck batter in the first place – To keep the game moving. In addition, use of these additional warm-up techniques creates significant liability issues. Frequently, these so-called “double-deck” or “triple-deck” batters do not wear required protective gear. There is also the risk that spectators, classmates, etc. could get hit by one of the additional on-deck batters. Remember, while umpires could be liable for not enforcing clearly established and codified rules, coaches and schools are potentially even more liable than umpires. That is because coaches and schools have assumed additional responsibilities of a supervisory nature.

Strict enforcement of the on-deck batter rules by both umpires and coaches will help keep the game moving smoothly and limit potential liability.
Thanks for all that. But as I mentioned in my OP, this was for a HS game, not an ASA game. And FED rules aren't very clear in their definition of on-deck batter, calling it the player entitled to occupy the on-deck circle.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 11, 2013, 10:39am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Almere (NL)
Posts: 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
The lead off batter each inning is the current batter. The on deck batter is the one who follows her. I have always allowed both of them out of the dugout between innings, but no more than those two. Never been instructed otherwise.

We had a local 12u coach a few years back that wanted his entire team out of the dugout swinging bats between innings as an intimidation factor. We put an end to that pretty quick....
Andy,
In red I've highlighted where you go wrong in my opinion. In between innings there's no current batter. Because no batter is allowed in the battersbox. So the first up to bat is the on-deck batter. In our competition and in ESF players looked very surprised when we started to enforce the rule more strictly. However now days no extra players come out. If they do, we just warn them and it's over...
__________________
Sander




Ik ben niet gek, doe alleen alsof! Gaat me goed af toch?
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 11, 2013, 11:27am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Woodstock, GA; Atlanta area
Posts: 2,822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
The lead off batter each inning is the current batter. The on deck batter is the one who follows her. I have always allowed both of them out of the dugout between innings, but no more than those two. Never been instructed otherwise.

We had a local 12u coach a few years back that wanted his entire team out of the dugout swinging bats between innings as an intimidation factor. We put an end to that pretty quick....
I think you are thinking the NCAA rule (which I prefer, actually). It is clear that between innings, two and only two people can be swinging bats on the field; the batter must be in foul territory and outside the batters box (and you can decide how far), and the (then) on-deck batter, to be in the on-deck circle.

So far as ASA and NFHS, I have a simpler way of looking at it, since there is no clear allowance like NCAA. Until I say (or can say; if not said, it isn't until I sweep the plate after the catcher throws down to 2nd) "batter up", no one is currently a batter [ASA 7-1.C(1), NFHS 7-5-3-a, and 2-5-3]; the first person to bat is still on-deck until that point. At the same time, if they stay over by the on-deck circle and not into the "space" to "time the pitches", I am prone to ignoring the second "on-deck" batter, similar to the NCAA allowance; just not more than that.
__________________
Steve
ASA/ISF/NCAA/NFHS/PGF
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
on deck batter coach g Baseball 38 Tue Jul 20, 2010 01:40pm
On Deck Batter RKBUmp Softball 32 Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:36am
On Deck Batter DownTownTonyBrown Baseball 4 Mon May 05, 2003 06:42pm
On Deck Batter Blue316 Baseball 4 Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:04am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:33pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1