And now for something completely different: Does the Run score?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

To take COVID-19 off of our minds for a bit, Mark, Jr., and I present the following play to the Softball Forum:


Play: R1 at 3B and R2 at 1B; 1 out. B4 hits a gapper. R1 scores. R2 misses 2B and stops at 3B. B/R4 is tagged out between 1B and 2B (after R1 has scored). Defense properly appeals that R2 missed 2B. Does the R1's Run score?


Please differentiate between NFHS, NCAA, USA Softball, and USSSA rulings. Thank you and let the fun begin.

MTD, Sr.

[CecilOne]

In USA Softball, BR4 being out before the appeal makes it a timing play, after R1 scores.

NFHS and USSSA treat the appeal as a force out, cancelling the run.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

In USA Softball, BR4 being out before the appeal makes it a timing play, after R1 scores.

NFHS and USSSA treat the appeal as a force out, cancelling the run.

Cecil:

Please site appropriate Rule and Casebook Play for each Rules set.

Thanks,

MTD, Sr.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Cecil:
Please site appropriate Rule and Casebook Play for each Rules set.
Thanks,
MTD, Sr.

USA 8.7.G, RS 1.J

NFHS 8-6-7, no case

USSSA - under "runner is out" in Rule 8(?)

[AtlUmpSteve]

NCAA, no run scores, still treated as a force play.

12.10.1 EFFECT

All rules sets, EXCEPT USA, rule on an appeal based on the time of the violation (was it a force out when the base was missed?). USA RS 1 (J) states the difference in philosophy, to be ruled based on the time of the appeal; thus subsequent play that erases a trail runner removes the force play in USA.

[Crabby_Bob]

[NFHS] 9-1-1d. The OP's play is very close to the case book play 9.1.1 situation O.

AtlUmpSteve has the correct summary.

[CecilOne]

With further reading (prompted by a friend), RS 1.J says
that when a batter runner is retired “PRIOR” to reaching 1st, then all force plays are eliminated

RS 1.J also says "Therefore, if the batter-runner or trail runner is put out prior to an appeal, the out on the appeal will not be considered a force out." I think that means the appeal out in this play is not a force out, so the run counts.
Please comment.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob

[NFHS] 9-1-1d. The OP's play is very close to the case book play 9.1.1 situation O.

AtlUmpSteve has the correct summary.

Good point on Rule 9, Bob. I have to admit I rarely look at Rule 9.
That case is the same except for where B4 is put out.

[CecilOne]

Regarding RS 1.J, I was told:
If BR is out prior to reaching first, no force play. Therefore, if they appeal R1 missed 2nd on her way to 3rd, that is a timing play, so the run would count.
If the BR is tagged after reaching 1st base safely, then the force is still on and the appeal on R1 missing 2nd is a force play and if it’s the 3rd out, the run would not count.

I'm uncertain how the last sentence in RS 1.J applies, with the wording "batter-runner or trail runner is put out prior to an appeal"; as opposed to the earlier sentence wording "batter-runner is put out prior to reaching first base".

Does it say something different, or just further explanation?
IOW, does it mean the force is not removed if the BR reaches and now "possesses" 1st, even if out after that before the appeal.

[AtlUmpSteve]

I am being blocked from replying, but you are getting bad advice. Will try private message response.

Short answer, force play is ALSO removed when any trail runner is put out, not just BR before 1st base.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I am being blocked from replying, but you are getting bad advice. Will try private message response.

Short answer, force play is ALSO removed when any trail runner is put out, not just BR before 1st base.

Thank you

[AtlUmpSteve]

I find the RS a bit wordy, and it may imply a contradiction, but it isn't. With runners on 1st and 2nd, if a ground ball assist goes to 2nd as the initial play, isn't the force off for R2 headed to 3rd (or to even return to 2nd)? Not different for a subsequent appeal.

I don't have a current casebook, but I remember an ASA case play, where the B/BR/R was thrown out at 2nd stretching a single on a throw to another base, and that removed a force play on a prior runner missing a base (changed it to timing for successful appeal).

Added: At best, the language is meant to reinforce that BR not reaching 1st is not, in itself, a force out, so both situations (BR and a trail runner) would remove a force play on a prior/advance runner.