Counting The Run

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

What would confuse this even more is if Daniels had passed first base (but missed the base and it was properly appealed.

Run would still count as the runner is considered to have reached first once they passed the base and the appeal would not be a force out

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by Insane Blue

Run would still count as the runner is considered to have reached first once they passed the base and the appeal would not be a force out

That is incorrect. The batter/runner is assumed to have touched the base until properly appealed. If the defense appeals the miss of first prior to the batter/runner returning to the base then they never reached first safely.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Interesting scenario. Usually when the BR misses 1B, the appeal has to be made before the runner gets back to the base. That's the typical live ball appeal.

In this string, we have an INT call which results in an immediate dead ball. The BR is probably not going to stop running to 1B. She may be passing the base after the INT has been called or before. Would it matter?

When there's a dead ball, doesn't a runner have the opportunity to correct a base running mistake? I.E. could she simply return to 1B without the possibility of an appeal?

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

That is incorrect. The batter/runner is assumed to have touched the base until properly appealed. If the defense appeals the miss of first prior to the batter/runner returning to the base then they never reached first safely.

Before the Appeal can be made the Runner has to be given the chance to correct a base running mistake before the appeal is allowed

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Able is on third base and Baker is on second base with one out.
Daniel hits the ball on the ground to the shortstop, who scoops up the ball and tags Baker out.
When attempting to throw the ball to first base, the shortstop is interfered with by Baker.
At the time of the interference, Able has reached home plate and Daniel has reached 1st base.
Assume the throw was never completed, no play at 1st.

My opinion: Daniel reaching 1st before being out allows the run to count.

Questions:
1) Does the BR being out as “closest to home” occur simultaneously with the INT?
2) If so, since with a dead ball nothing happens, does that alter the run counting if INT occurs before the BR reaches 1st?
3) Does a BR being awarded 1st on the INT change the ruling?

Comment based on any rules, but please specify.

I admit that I am late in joining the party but this evening, after Mother's Day dinner, was the first time that Mark, Jr., and I had a chance to sit down and discuss this play.


I) We do not have access to the USA Softball Rules Book but are very confident that the Ruling will be the same as the NFHS and NCAA Rulings. Therefore, I will only respond per NFHS and NCAA Rules.


II) Let us describe the Play per accepted Softball nomenclature:

A) R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, one out, and B4 is the Batter.

B) Ground Ball to F6, and R1 and R2 are off at the crack of the Bat.

C) F6 tags R2 for the 2nd out of the inning.

D) The moment that R2 is tagged out R2 becomes a Retired Runner.

E) R1 acquires HP and B/R4 acquires 1B after R2 becomes a Retired Runner.


III) Any actions by R2 after II-E, by Rule, are not Interference.

A) R1 had already acquired HP and had become a Retired Runner. Therefore there is no play to be made on R1 by F6.

B) B/R4 had already acquired 1B and unless B/R4 was attempting to go to 2B there was no play to be made on B/R4 by F6. It is highly unlikely that B/R4 was attempting to go to 2B (99.999% of the time in plays like the B/R is running through 1B). Therefore there is no play to be made on B/R4 by F6.

And quite frankly in all of the Junior's college softball games that I have watched him umpire for the last six seasons I know of only one player that could possibly be past 1B in the above described play: Brianna Glass, a senior this year at Indiana Institute of Technology in the Wolverine-Hoosier Athletic Conference, an NAIA Div. II school, who set the single season stolen base record, NCAA Div. I, II, and III, and NAIA Div. I and II with 81 stolen bases in 89 attempts; I saw her score from 1B on a single to Right Field last year. But I digress.


IV) Which brings us back to R2's actions after R2 became a Retired Runner, and R1 had acquired HP and B/R4 had acquired 1B. R2's actions are:

A) Trivial and are to be ignored,

B) Rise to the level of Unsportsmanlike Conduct which only requires a Verbal Warning, in which case the BU should declare the Ball Dead immediately and issue the Verbal Warning.

C) NFHS: Rise to the level of Unsportsmanlike Conduct which requires that R2 be Restricted to the Bench, in which case the BU should declare the Ball Dead immediately.

D) Rise to the level of Unsportsmanlike Conduct that requires R2 to be Ejected from the Game, in which case the BU should declare the Ball Dead immediately.

MTD, Sr.

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by Insane Blue

Before the Appeal can be made the Runner has to be given the chance to correct a base running mistake before the appeal is allowed

That is not what you stated in your initial comment. You said the runner is considered to have touched the base and the run would score.

I was not addressing nor did you address that it was a dead ball situation. The fact of the matter is and I did state that if a proper appeal was made then the batter/runner never did reach first base.

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

That is not what you stated in your initial comment. You said the runner is considered to have touched the base and the run would score.

I was not addressing nor did you address that it was a dead ball situation. The fact of the matter is and I did state that if a proper appeal was made then the batter/runner never did reach first base.

I will be more thorough in my wording in the future

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Insane Blue

Before the Appeal can be made the Runner has to be given the chance to correct a base running mistake before the appeal is allowed

So here is a situation. Same instance, but the interference by the retired runner happens as F6 (I think that was the defensive player) is throwing the ball. The BR misses first base, and seeing the ball go over the F3's head, goes straight to second base,, having missed first. (Even though the umpire is yelling dead ball). She stops at second. The defense then appeals the missed base.

She has completed her base running by not attempting to go back and touch first. The missed base is then properly appealed.

Run does not count.

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

So here is a situation. Same instance, but the interference by the retired runner happens as F6 (I think that was the defensive player) is throwing the ball. The BR misses first base, and seeing the ball go over the F3's head, goes straight to second base,, having missed first. (Even though the umpire is yelling dead ball). She stops at second. The defense then appeals the missed base.

She has completed her base running by not attempting to go back and touch first. The missed base is then properly appealed.

Run does not count.

Correct but runner still could have gone back and touched first in this scenario but chose not to as many in this scenario do.