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Sat Oct 29, 2005, 06:27pm
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I think we blew one last night and I looking for where we went wrong. (FED, if it matters.)
We had five linemen in standard set. L side had one wide out with L signalling right arm out for 'off the line.' LJ side had two players just to the tackle's right. To me (the U) they looked off the line. There was also a wide out on the LJ side. LJ had both arms out for 'one off/one on'. At the snap, I dropped a flag. After the play, I reported the infraction to the R and we marked off the penalty and replayed the down. This negated a large gain. A couple of plays later, we had a hurt player. During the time out, the LJ said to me, "You know I had two on the line on that penalty. I was giving you the arm back for the one off the line and with the arm forward I was holding two fingers out, to signal 'two on'." Ouch! Okay, messed up and move on. But what lessons are there to learn? 1. Better pregame: The wingmen did tell me that if they had two men on, they would not hold both arms on one side, but would hold up one arm with two fingers out. This is not our usually singal but was good for me. However, we did not discuss this 'three people' mechanic. I guess we should have. 2. What is my responsibility as an umpire if I throw a flag in this situation? Should I check with wing men to see if they really did have people on or off? Perhaps not the solo receiver like the L had above, but should I verify when I have multiple receivers lined up? 3. If a wingman has two receivers 'on', should he notify the U if the flag is thrown? (I realize if multiple are 'on' then the inside one is covered and not really a 'receiver'.) Comments or suggestions? I'm just trying to get it right next time. 
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Sat Oct 29, 2005, 07:17pm
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As an umpire, I don't throw for an illegal formation, unless I count less than 11 offensive players. I let the wings determine if the formation is legal or not.
That being said, the signals used by your wings is very unusual. I've never heard of such.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
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Sat Oct 29, 2005, 07:26pm
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Sounds like this should be the LJ's call all the way. And after that why didn't he come in and say he had seven on the line instead of letting you mark it off?
He may have thought you flagged something else, perhaps.
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Sat Oct 29, 2005, 07:37pm
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On our crew the wingmen call "not enough men on the line of scrimmage". We start with the indication to each other with a hand over our head for (2) grab the bill of our hat for (3) and a fist over our chest for (4). We do not count the center for obvious reasons. If it gets any more than 4 on a side we just work togeter. After the first signal we then indicate with arms out if the wide out is off or on the line of scrimmage. 2 fingers if multiple are split. This helps with eligible receivers also.
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Sat Oct 29, 2005, 07:43pm
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This is not an umpires resp. He has enough to do without looking out to the wings to see what is going on. It is the wings resp to see if there is 7 men on the LOS. The wings should punch back if the man closest to them is off the line.
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Sat Oct 29, 2005, 10:26pm
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Quote:
Then I remembered the thread on this board called 'pre-snap routine' and checked it. There were a couple of references to things like checking for wide outs on or off the line. I wonder if that is because they are checking for eligibility and not to verify seven on the line. In our organization it is the ump's call. In this case, I didn't understand why the LJ did not say anything. The fact that he said something 3 plays later made me realize he knew what happened. My big question is after the call, but before marking off the penalty, is it (a) my responsibility to double check with the wingmen, (b) R's responsbility after I report the infraction to check with the wingmen if needed, or (c) LJ's responsibility to come in and let us know. I believe it is (b) and (c), but not (a). My first order seems to be to report the infraction to R. I think I would be out of order running all over the field double checking with everyone before going to R. (Especially as slow as first year umpires run.  )
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Sat Oct 29, 2005, 11:06pm
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Let me say on our crew, the wings call the illegal
formation. That being said they take their cue from the R and U to see if the "count" is good. If we are good we have the fist up shoulder high. If too many we shut it down if possible before the snap. If not enough I am pointing forward toward the center with my arm straight and a pump handle motion. This enables the wing to only look for # in the backfield. This serves us well. U probably shouldn't be flagging this. As R I have flagged this on a try,(not enough on the line) Only 10 on field obviously the kicker and holder, the 2 wingback outside blockers only left 6 on the line. I let my wing have 1st shot he passed so I took it.
__________________
Leave the gun, bring the cannoli..
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 12:05am
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As most have said - U has not formation responsiblity. Leave it up to the wings, the next person to call it would be the R and probably in a case of less than 11 players. Other than that it is not your responsbility.
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 05:26am
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Quote:
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 09:04am
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Quote:
First, I find the wings' signals difficult to interpret quickly (esp. 2 men on the LOS). The only concern our umpire has with guys on/off the line is if he has an eligible number "covered up" who then goes downfield. Not enough on the line is the wing's call all day. Also, I'm just wondering why the LJ (and the other wing) did not come to you right then after the play to tell you they had a legal formation? Finally, I would say to refine the signal between members of your crew. As I alluded to earlier, it is difficult to see signals made with the fingers (especially before the snap, when you just have time to catch it out of the corner of your eye). It would be my suggestion to come up with a signal that is more visible to an official who is primarily looking somewhere else and can't look away for a long time to try and "interpret" what another official is signalling. Just MHO on the subject....
__________________
If the play is designed to fool someone, make sure you aren't the fool.
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 09:16am
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It's not in the NFHS published mechanics manual. MR U. checks for 5 players 50-to-79 along with some other duties, Counting 7 on the line is not one of them.
Even if it was in the NFHS manual, my crew wouldn't use it because we are all NCAA officials and rely on our other training to assure at least 7 on the line. That simple procedure has been discused, beat to death in this fourm and in other forums. We work as a team of four (R,U L and H) to get it right every time. It's not rocket science, we don't look like 3rd base coaches flashing signs across the field. Bottom line in my opinion is do what works for you. If you find mistakes are still occurring, then it's time to think about a change.
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Tue Nov 01, 2005, 11:21am
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Manuals are guidelines. The pregame is the gospel.
My crew works together all season and the way we work it is: 1) R and U count 11 and signal to each other 2) LJ counts B 3) HL and LJ signal on or off for the last man on their side 4) U confirms five numbered 50-79 5) R counts four in backfield -- remember it has been confirmed there are 11, so, four in the backfield means there are 7 on the line. The U should not be concerned with 7 on the line. R is the one with the illegal formation. While this works for us it may not work for everybody. Each crew should discuss before every game the method and responsibilities used to count. As an aside, one team in our area bragged about how many times he has run an offensive play with 12 men. I had that team last week and they did not even try because in scouting another team they saw us constantly counting. Remember, coaches scout us too!
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Tue Nov 01, 2005, 03:28pm
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I've never seen, read, nor heard of, a mechanic that has U responsible for illegal formation. What are HL and LJ doing with all their signals to each other, if not figuring this out and flagging if necessary.
__________________
"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
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Wed Nov 02, 2005, 08:01am
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i had an umpire make this call a few weeks ago, and it was a prime example of why it is not his call. he threw the flag because he saw both wings have ends punched off. that is true, but seven others were lined up in between them, as they were the whole game. (flag was in the 4th quarter)
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