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Old Tue Jul 16, 2019, 11:32am
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LBR v abandoning a base

NFHS Rules.

There is a runner on third base. Her teammate strikes out for the second out of the inning, and the ball is returned to the pitcher. The runner thinks this is the third out and takes four or five steps toward her first base dugout before she realizes her mistake and scampers back to third base with no play being made on her.

From the 2019 Rules-

Rule 8-7 on Page 71:

Article 2 uses the verbiage "... must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base" which suggests to me that the LBR is intended for between-bases running.

However, Article 3 says "stops at a base ... will be declared out if she leaves the base." Here only one base is explicitly mentioned. There is no "leaving to advance" or "leaving to return" to some other base. Implicitly there seems to be another base, but the Rule does not say so.

Then we have Rule 8-6-19 on Page 70:

The verbiage is "abandons a base by entering dead-ball territory." Here the path is clearly from a base to the dugout, and no other base is involved.

So what is your understanding in the above scenario? Does the LBR apply and she is Out? Or is she abandoning a base, and the LBR does not apply, and she has to be tagged Out?
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Old Tue Jul 16, 2019, 12:24pm
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Seems strange the runner would watch the ball returned to the pitcher, and the defense stay at their positions, and still think there are 3 outs and head to the dugout.

Likely she headed in shortly after the strikeout, perhaps as the ball is just getting to the pitcher. Regardless, if anything, she's in jeopardy of being put out by the normal means, or she will be called out if she leaves the field of play, but I don't think I'd be calling a LBR violation here (despite the likely protestations of the DC).

Apologies if my scenario is not accurate...
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Old Tue Jul 16, 2019, 12:30pm
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Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
Seems strange the runner would watch the ball returned to the pitcher, and the defense stay at their positions, and still think there are 3 outs and head to the dugout.

Likely she headed in shortly after the strikeout, perhaps as the ball is just getting to the pitcher. Regardless, if anything, she's in jeopardy of being put out by the normal means, or she will be called out if she leaves the field of play, but I don't think I'd be calling a LBR violation here (despite the likely protestations of the DC).

Apologies if my scenario is not accurate...
Second paragraph is about right. She probably took a couple of steps after the ball was in the circle, saw nobody else was going anywhere, and thought, Oops!
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Old Tue Jul 16, 2019, 12:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake26 View Post
NFHS Rules.
From the 2019 Rules-

Rule 8-7 on Page 71:

Article 2 uses the verbiage "... must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base" which suggests to me that the LBR is intended for between-bases running.

However, Article 3 says "stops at a base ... will be declared out if she leaves the base." Here only one base is explicitly mentioned. There is no "leaving to advance" or "leaving to return" to some other base. Implicitly there seems to be another base, but the Rule does not say so.

Then we have Rule 8-6-19 on Page 70:

The verbiage is "abandons a base by entering dead-ball territory." Here the path is clearly from a base to the dugout, and no other base is involved.

So what is your understanding in the above scenario? Does the LBR apply and she is Out? Or is she abandoning a base, and the LBR does not apply, and she has to be tagged Out?
Basis: " ball is returned to the pitcher" while the runner is on the base, also no time out/dead ball.

Why not 8-6-18, "runner fails to keep contact with the base" ... "until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand". That is an out, no tag required.
Although the LBR can apply to that situation, it is about running/attaining bases and resetting; not a base already attained. Still an out.

There is no dead ball territory involved, so 8-6-19 does not apply.

Art. 8-6-3 is about batted balls, so also not relevant.
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Old Wed Jul 17, 2019, 08:27am
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Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Basis: " ball is returned to the pitcher" while the runner is on the base, also no time out/dead ball.

Why not 8-6-18, "runner fails to keep contact with the base" ... "until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand". That is an out, no tag required.
Although the LBR can apply to that situation, it is about running/attaining bases and resetting; not a base already attained. Still an out.

There is no dead ball territory involved, so 8-6-19 does not apply.

Art. 8-6-3 is about batted balls, so also not relevant.
8-6-18 applies during the pitch. This is about the LBR and it's an LBR violation. She left a base she was stopped at while the ball was in the circle.
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Old Wed Jul 31, 2019, 10:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake26 View Post
NFHS Rules.

There is a runner on third base. Her teammate strikes out for the second out of the inning, and the ball is returned to the pitcher. The runner thinks this is the third out and takes four or five steps toward her first base dugout before she realizes her mistake and scampers back to third base with no play being made on her.

From the 2019 Rules-

Rule 8-7 on Page 71:

Article 2 uses the verbiage "... must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base" which suggests to me that the LBR is intended for between-bases running.

However, Article 3 says "stops at a base ... will be declared out if she leaves the base." Here only one base is explicitly mentioned. There is no "leaving to advance" or "leaving to return" to some other base. Implicitly there seems to be another base, but the Rule does not say so.

Then we have Rule 8-6-19 on Page 70:

The verbiage is "abandons a base by entering dead-ball territory." Here the path is clearly from a base to the dugout, and no other base is involved.

So what is your understanding in the above scenario? Does the LBR apply and she is Out? Or is she abandoning a base, and the LBR does not apply, and she has to be tagged Out?
Well, you don't have abandonment here because that doesn't kick in under NFHS until the runner actually enters DBT. A runner could go all the way to her dugout entrance and then go back to the base and not be out for abandonment.

As for your point of being between bases, don't forget that a runner may take any path she wants to run the bases until a defender is trying to tag her. So a runner who leaves her base before LBR is in effect doesn't have to be heading directly to her next base. But once she stops, she must immediately attempt to advance to her next base or return to her previous one, so at that point her path has to be in the general direction of one of those two bases.

From your description, I see no basis in ruling this runner out for a LBR violation unless she left the base after the pitcher had the ball in the circle.
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Old Wed Jul 31, 2019, 08:37pm
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Just more over-reacting BS about an unnecessary rule
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