Runner Abandoning the Base Path

[Fritz]

Two part question that actually took place earlier this evening.

7th grade bottom division, 2 outs, runners on 2nd and 3rd. Batter whiffs on strike 3 but catcher clearly traps the ball in the dirt. Home plate signals the swing but does not call the batter out and points down at the dirt (BU confirms the trap from C position). Defense runs (more or less) off the field thinking they have 3 outs, batter trudges toward the dugout as do the two runners - all the while PU stands at the plate still pointing down and not calling the out.

Question #1 (a mechanics question): when the batter steps into the dugout, which he did despite the 1B coach realizing at the last minute what was going on and yelling at the batter to run toward first, who has the responsibility to make the "out" call? Plate umpire or base umpire? I vote for the plate umpire unless the runner on 3rd is coing down the line to try and score.

Question #2 (ruling): let's say in this situation, the batter realizes he isn't out and dashes to first safely at the last second. At what point are the other runners allowed to advance/score? In our case tonight, the other runners were right behind the batter in getting to the dugout, or were already in the dugout. Can the runner on 3rd run and touch home to score straight from the dugout area if he isn't in it yet? If he has reached the dugout and the batter is safe at first, is R3 out for abandonment (3rd out)?

Curious as to what someone else thinks. My partner and I decided that yes, the runner(s) would be out for abandoning the base path if they got into the dugout, but if they hadn't entered yet, they could sprint directly to their next base and have this considered legal.

Comments?

[SAump]

The runner on 2B definitely went out of his way. I have an out there for abandonment. I would not let him return to the field of play. Skunk or no skunk. I am not sure where the batter and R3 ended up near which dugout, but from your description, a case may also be made for abandonment on either one of them. If both are near each other near the dugout, I also have one of them out for abandonment.

[Forest Ump]

Isn't this the new rule in OBR for 2007; once the batter leaves the 26 foot circle around home plate he has relinquished his opportunity to advance to 1B? I have used this new rule once this year in a lower level game. Similar scenario as OP, I called him out when I guessstimated he had walked at least 13 feet from home towards his dugout.

[SAump]

Base abandonment?
Base abandonment?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Fritz

Home plate signals the swing but does not call the batter out and points down at the dirt.

PU should also give the "safe" sign and a verbal "no catch."

Question #1 (a mechanics question): when the batter steps into the dugout, which he did despite the 1B coach realizing at the last minute what was going on and yelling at the batter to run toward first, who has the responsibility to make the "out" call? Plate umpire or base umpire? I vote for the plate umpire unless the runner on 3rd is coing down the line to try and score.

When the batter steps in the dugout, no umpire should make a call. The plate umpire should make the call when the batter leaves the dirt circle around home (even if R3 is heading for home).

Question #2 (ruling): let's say in this situation, the batter realizes he isn't out and dashes to first safely at the last second. At what point are the other runners allowed to advance/score? In our case tonight, the other runners were right behind the batter in getting to the dugout, or were already in the dugout. Can the runner on 3rd run and touch home to score straight from the dugout area if he isn't in it yet? If he has reached the dugout and the batter is safe at first, is R3 out for abandonment (3rd out)?

Normal abandonment rules apply to the other runners.

[LMan]

1. Yes, if you are playing OBR, once the batter leaves the dirt circle he can be called out for 'desertion' (J/R phrase). FED still allows an advance until the BR reaches DBT.

2. PUs mechanics here are incorrect - to me, pointing down at the dirt could be anything. The generally accepted mechanic is to give the 'safe' sign and verbalize 'no catch! no catch!' That lets everyone know the situation. I continue to see some MLB umpires give the 'horizontal fist' (a la Eddings) but I don't know the rationale behind that - I think the safe sign is better, because that makes it crystal that the BR is NOT out.

3. RE: abandonment, the dugout is DBT, so of course that's too late to advance. Prior to that, umpire judgment prevails - I would not be quite as generous as you in allowing their return if I were convinced they had abandoned their bases.

If you call the BR out for desertion once he leaves the circle, you avoid all this stuff with the other runners

BTW, in #1, once the BR stepped into the dugout (as you say), its too late for the coach to yell at him, he's out. It was past the 'last minute'.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by Forest Ump

Isn't this the new rule in OBR for 2007; once the batter leaves the 26 foot circle around home plate he has relinquished his opportunity to advance to 1B? I have used this new rule once this year in a lower level game. Similar scenario as OP, I called him out when I guessstimated he had walked at least 13 feet from home towards his dugout.

Do you carry your tape measure in your left ballbag or your right?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by LMan

I continue to see some MLB umpires give the 'horizontal fist' (a la Eddings) but I don't know the rationale behind that - I think the safe sign is better, because that makes it crystal that the BR is NOT out.

Regarding the notorious Eddings and his fiasco, I seem to recall someone explaining that the hand straight out signaled the swinging strike, and the fist pump signaled the catch (and hence, the out). Things got, uh, messed up thereafter.

One might still use the hand straight out to signal a swinging strike 3, and add a safe sign while verbalizing "no catch" for the case at hand.

[Forest Ump]

Originally Posted by LMan

Do you carry your tape measure in your left ballbag or your right?

Of course I do. I keep it in my leather ball bag.

[btdt]

The generally accepted mechanic is to give the 'safe' sign and verbalize 'no catch! no catch!'

Generally accepted by who?

In what other situation do you verbalize a situation in progress for the benefit of the players (excluding safe/out/strike/ball). Isn't the umpire verbalizing "no catch" and signaling giving players instructions they should gather on thier own. Umpires don't verbilize instructions to players any other time.

The FED manual instructs umpires to verbilize "batter's out" if he starts to run on dropped third strike when he is not entitled to. Otherwise mute.

This is a situation of umpires doing too much for the wrong reason , in my experience.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by btdt

The generally accepted mechanic is to give the 'safe' sign and verbalize 'no catch! no catch!'

Generally accepted by who?

.

I'm not going into all that again. Search 'Eddings' on the forum when you have a spare week or two.



As I recall, I previously posted that I'm having trouble myself with the verbalization part...I can signal safe no problem, but its hard for me to say 'no catch' for some reason.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by btdt

The generally accepted mechanic is to give the 'safe' sign and verbalize 'no catch! no catch!'

Generally accepted by who?

In what other situation do you verbalize a situation in progress for the benefit of the players (excluding safe/out/strike/ball). Isn't the umpire verbalizing "no catch" and signaling giving players instructions they should gather on thier own. Umpires don't verbilize instructions to players any other time.

The FED manual instructs umpires to verbilize "batter's out" if he starts to run on dropped third strike when he is not entitled to. Otherwise mute.

This is a situation of umpires doing too much for the wrong reason , in my experience.

The current mechanic being taught at pro school is for the umpire to signal the strike by pointing to the side to avoid any confusion with a hammer strike and a hammer out, then while using the safe signal, say "no catch."

To anticipate your question, this is accepted in pro ball and should be accepted in any league.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by btdt

[B]
The FED manual instructs umpires to verbilize "batter's out" if he starts to run on dropped third strike when he is not entitled to. Otherwise mute.

By the way, the best thing you can do with the FED umpire manual is throw it out the day it arrives.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GarthB

By the way, the best thing you can do with the FED umpire manual is throw it out the day it arrives.

Is that why I don't have one? Yep, it is.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by btdt

The generally accepted mechanic is to give the 'safe' sign and verbalize 'no catch! no catch!'

Generally accepted by who?

In what other situation do you verbalize a situation in progress for the benefit of the players (excluding safe/out/strike/ball).

Well, isn't this a "safe" call? If there's a play in the outfiled where the outfielder dives for the ball and it short-hops into the glove, don't you signal and verbalize "safe" (or whatever you call that means that -- "no catch", "ball's on the ground", etc.)?

Isn't there a difference between telling the players the status of the play (safe / no catch) and what to do (run to first, tag the runner)?

Is this too many questions?

What if there were no hypothetical situations?