Failing to advance or Abandoning a base

Dakota · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 21, 2004, 03:23pm

Bases loaded, tie game, 7th inning, home team at bat with 2 outs. Ball 4, winning run is walked in.

a) BR does not advance to 1st, but enters dugout.

b) R1 does not advance to home, but enters dugout.

Do you call either runner out?
Are either of these appeal plays?
Is there a difference between a) and b)?

ASA Rules, fast pitch please.

[Edited by Dakota on Jun 21st, 2004 at 05:26 PM]

whiskers_ump · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 21, 2004, 04:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
Bases loaded, tie game, 7th inning, home team at bat with 2 outs. Ball 4, winning run is walked in.

a) BR does not advance to 1st, but enters dugout.

b) R1 does not advance to home, but enters dugout.

Do you call either runner out?
Are either of these appeal plays?
Is there a difference between a) and b)?

ASA Rules, please.

a) out - 3rd out BR does not reach 1st.
b) out - In this case does not matter.

ASA Rule 8 Sec. 7 U. (The Runner is Out)

Do not believe it is an appeal.

[Edited by whiskers_ump on Jun 21st, 2004 at 05:04 PM]

greymule · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 21, 2004, 04:15pm

Depends whether it is FP or SP.

Case play 8.6.1

In a FP game, bottom of the 10th inning, two outs, tie score, with R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B. B4 draws a walk. (a) B4 fails to go to 1B and instead enters his team area, although all other runners advance one base. (b) R3 does not advance to 2B and instead walks off the field, although all other runners and the batter do advance one base. Are these appeal plays, or should the umpire call the infractions when he sees them?

Ruling: When a walk is issued, all runners, including the batter, must touch all bases awarded. Therefore, in (a) as soon as B4 enters his team's area, he should be called out by the umpire. Because the out occurred before the BR reached 1B, it results in a force out. Since the third out is the result of a force out, no run can score on the play. In (b) as soon as the runner from 1B leaves the field of play or enters his team area, he should be called out by the umpire. This is also a force and no runs will score. In neither case is it an appeal play. It must be called by the umpire as soon as the offending player leaves the field of play.

My appended handwritten note says, "In SP, the ball is dead. The defense must appeal."

whiskers_ump · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 21, 2004, 04:24pm

greymule - In neither case is it an appeal play. It must be called by the umpire as soon as the offending player leaves the field of play.

Is this saying that umpire must call it as soon as runners
enters DBT, or does he wait for the appeal? Probably would
not be one is this case, everyone leaving the field figuring
the game was over.

Dakota · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 21, 2004, 04:27pm

I've edited my scenario to indicate fast pitch. Sorry for my myopia.

Dakota · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 21, 2004, 04:30pm

Notice the difference in wording between rules 8-2D (scenario a) and 8-7U (scenario b).

greymule · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2004, 08:39am

greymule - In neither case is it an appeal play. It must be called by the umpire as soon as the offending player leaves the field of play.

It appears that somebody posted this and then Whiskers quoted it. Who wrote it originally?

This may be correct, but I'm wondering why the case book specified FP. And I wouldn't have simply arbitrarily added a note that in SP it's an appeal. Wish I had my books with me at the moment.

Dakota · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2004, 09:29am

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule
...I'm wondering why the case book specified FP. And I wouldn't have simply arbitrarily added a note that in SP it's an appeal. Wish I had my books with me at the moment.

The case book says FP because in some SP divisions the ball is dead on a base on balls and the BR is not out for entering the dugout during a dead ball. Same as in FP with a HBP. The ball is dead and the BR is not out for leaving the field of play. That would leave a defensive appeal for failing to touch the base.

Dakota · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2004, 09:35am

No one has yet offered an opinion on what I was fishing for...

Is there a difference between "fails to advance" (referring to the BR in rule 8-2D) and "abandons a base" (referring to a runner in rule 8-7U)?

If there is no difference, then there is a direct call of OUT by the umpire in both scenarios. No appeal.

If there is a difference, then it could be argued that R1 in scenario b did not "abandon a base" but rather walked of the field after the game was (apparently) over. This would then seem to require a defensive appeal (presumably for failing to touch home).

While it is true that R1 did fail to advance, that is not the words the rule uses. Did R1 also abandon the base?

IRISHMAFIA · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2004, 10:52am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
No one has yet offered an opinion on what I was fishing for...

Is there a difference between "fails to advance" (referring to the BR in rule 8-2D) and "abandons a base" (referring to a runner in rule 8-7U)?

Fishing? How did I know that's what you were doing?

It doesn't make any difference as neither is a cause for ruling a player out.

Dakota · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2004, 11:50am

Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
It doesn't make any difference as neither is a cause for ruling a player out.

Help me understand your reasoning.

ASA Rule 8-2D says the BR is out when the BR fails to advance to first base and enters the team area after a base on balls.

Case play 8.6-1 (referenced above) says the same thing. So does case play 8.2-11 and 8.2-12.

ASA Rule 8-7U / Case play 8.6-1 also calls the runner out for not advancing and entering the dugout on a BOB. There is no other case play that I could find that addresses this situation with 8-7U.

PS, in case it is not obvious, Mike, I brought this discussion over to this board so the discussion could be more open.

greymule · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2004, 02:11pm

The case book says FP because in some SP divisions the ball is dead on a base on balls and the BR is not out for entering the dugout during a dead ball.

Yes. My case book is a couple of years old, written before stealing was instituted. It assumed a dead ball after a pitch, not always the case today. This leads me to start a new thread.

IRISHMAFIA · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2004, 02:43pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota

Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
It doesn't make any difference as neither is a cause for ruling a player out.

Help me understand your reasoning.

Though I don't think my answer can be clearer, I will try to make it so. A runner cannot be ruled out for abandoning a base or failing to advance to 1B.

Quote:

PS, in case it is not obvious, Mike, I brought this discussion over to this board so the discussion could be more open.

Probably more obvious to me than the others

greymule · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2004, 03:06pm

Is the case book play out of date, then? Or is there some difference between it and mere "failure to advance" or "abandonment of a base"? Is entering the dugout or leaving the field the key?

Dakota · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2004, 03:44pm

Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Though I don't think my answer can be clearer, I will try to make it so. A runner cannot be ruled out for abandoning a base or failing to advance to 1B.

Your answer was very clear, even more so now. What I don't understand is what happens to 8-2D, 8-7U, and the case plays. Admittedly, I have the 2003 case book with me here at work (the 2004 one is at home), but it does seem very clear. Were these case plays removed or the rulings changed?

Is this an NUS interpretation that is not documented in the rule book (like the flagrant misconduct OUT)? But at least that one was in the case book.