looking for wording

[Tru_in_Blu]

USA Softball 18U tournament this past weekend. I am on the bases, an inexperienced umpire is PU.

Bases loaded, no outs. Batter hits a ball that is rolling in foul territory towards third base. Along the foul line there is some grass about 2 - 2 1/2 feet from the line. The runner from third base after leaving on the pitch release is now about 4 feet from the base in foul territory. She has her heel on the ground and traps the ball under the front part of her shoe.

PU takes a second and declares a foul ball.

Defensive coach asks for time and talks to PU who then asks me to come in to discuss. She said the coach thinks that was INT on the base runner. I said you could make a case for INT. She thought about it for a few seconds and decided the runner was out for INT.

The batted ball was not a screamer. It did not "hit" the runner in foul territory. The runner did something very deliberate in stopping the ball.

Would it have stayed foul if untouched? Possibly. There is that little mounding of the turf where the grass is growing. The ball could have hit a clump of grass and come into fair territory or clipped the base on the way by.

My dilemma is that I cannot find the correct rule reference in the USA Softball rules book. Now I may have the wording stuck in my head from NFHS.

The paraphrasing I recall is something like: "or interferes with a ground foul ball that might have a chance of being fair". But it might have been related to a BR.

I know that in some cases, passages I recall are not where I might expect them to be.

Can anybody help?

Thanx.

[CecilOne]

I assume you are looking for something in the 8-7-J area.

The trouble is it is a foul ball and not in flight, so how can there be a play to interfere with?

I don't see supposing the ball becoming fair, possibilities are not reality.

Maybe some other approach like UC or ..., which would have to look intentional.

[jmkupka]

The only rule I'm aware of dealing with "a ball in foul territory that could possibly become fair" deals with the defense touching the ball with detached equipment.

For instance, a catcher seeing a foul ball about to cross the chalk swats at it with her mask to keep it foul... 3 base award (if you think it would've gone fair)

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

The only rule I'm aware of dealing with "a ball in foul territory that could possibly become fair" deals with the defense touching the ball with detached equipment.

For instance, a catcher seeing a foul ball about to cross the chalk swats at it with her mask to keep it foul... 3 base award (if you think it would've gone fair)

Not to hijack my own thread, but in your case above, if the catcher has the mask in her possession, it's not detached. Secondly, if she throws the mask (or glove) and it hits the ball while in foul territory, this is not a violation. The batted ball must be on or over fair territory to have a violation.

My correction: the mask would be detached. For example, she can't catch a popup with the mask. If she throws glove or mask and hits a batted ball in foul territory, not a violation.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Maybe some other approach like UC or ..., which would have to look intentional.

Oh, this was most definitely intentional.

[youngump]

Intentional interference with a grounded foul ball is not illegal. Find a rule to prove me wrong.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Nothing but a foul ball

[jmkupka]

True. I was citing the NCAA interp, and it is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

[jmkupka]

OK, since I'm being annoying, how about if the runner, instead of contacting a foul ball that is obviously about to come into fair territory, interferes with a fielder attempting to keep that ball foul. Let's even make it blatantly intentional (just not USC for an ejection)... still nothing but a foul ball?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

OK, since I'm being annoying, how about if the runner, instead of contacting a foul ball that is obviously about to come into fair territory, interferes with a fielder attempting to keep that ball foul. Let's even make it blatantly intentional (just not USC for an ejection)... still nothing but a foul ball?

Interference with a player while the ball is foul is not illegal(*); find a rule to prove me wrong.

It won't actually help in your example though because it is a reason that the ball becomes foul. Interference while the ball is foul causes the ball to be foul regardless of what it subsequently does.


(*) at least it doesn't result in an out

[Tru_in_Blu]

It took a while, but I did finally locate the wording I was looking for.

It is an NFHS rule: 7-4 Batter is out

Art. 13 After hitting or bunting a ball, the bat hits the ball a second time while the ball is on or over fair territory, or is on or over foul territory and, in the umpire's judgment, had a chance to become a fair ball.

EXCEPTION: If the batter is in the batter's box and the bat is in the batter's hands when the second contact occurs, it is a foul ball regardless of whether the ball was on or over fair or foul territory unless, in the umpire's judgment, the batter intentionally hit the ball a second time.

USA Softball has no such wording.

I remembered this odd wording, and initially thought it might apply to a batted ground ball that was foul and might become fair. Clearly, that is not the case as the above wording applies to a ball hit a second time.

The USA Softball wording of this situation seems a bit clearer to me, although there have still been questions about it. Perhaps there was a clarification on this a while back.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by youngump

Interference with a player while the ball is foul is not illegal(*); find a rule to prove me wrong.

(*) at least it doesn't result in an out

How about 8-7-J-1-F? For USA Softball, it's actually 2 outs.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

How about 8-7-J-1-F? For USA Softball, it's actually 2 outs.

I agree with youngump. IMO, USA's wording is faulty as a caught fly ball is nothing more than a caught fly ball and the position of said ball is irrelevant to the rules. A ball does not become foul until it is no longer a fly ball

[jmkupka]

For the EXCEPTION section, it should just read "any fly ball that can be caught with ordinary effort". If it is interfered with, both interfering runner and batter are called out.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

How about 8-7-J-1-F? For USA Softball, it's actually 2 outs.

I don't have my rulebook with me but I believe that's for a fly ball? My comment should have said interfering with a player while a grounded ball is foul. Fly balls on either side of the line are not the same thing.