The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 24, 2019, 07:54am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fremont, NH
Posts: 1,352
running lane - for throws only

USA Softball 18U tournament this past weekend.

First pitch of the game, lefty batter tries a drag bunt down first base line. F3 charges in to field the ball and picks it up literally off the chalk maybe 3 feet beyond where the running lane begins. She has the ball for less than a second when there is a collision between BR and F3. Both players go down in a heap.

I called the BR out on a tag. First base coach claims that F3 dropped the ball. I check with my partner who says F3 did indeed drop the ball. I asked if he thought she had it long enough for the out to stand and he did not think so. I overturned my original call and the BR was ruled safe at first.

Now defensive coach is complaining about the runner not being in the runner's lane which gets me to thinking about the play. My thoughts were such:
  • I didn't have INT since F3 was actually able to field the ball.
  • I didn't have INT under the crash rule - this was bang, bang two players colliding.
  • I didn't have OBS since F3 was making a play on a fair batted ball.

The part I did question was the runner's use of the running lane. But I think it applies more to thrown balls if/when the runner is hit with a thrown ball. There was a spike mark just past where the running lane begins that might indicate that the runner tried to veer to her right at the last moment. That spike mark was clearly in fair territory which is what the defensive coach argued.

Comments?
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 24, 2019, 08:37am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 648
When a defensive player is in possession of the ball with the runner approaching, the runner is required to slide, avoid, or surrender.

If the runner is doing one of these, the fielder needs to maintain control through the tagging process.

Doesn't sound like the runner did any of these. As described, I think I'd stay with my out call...

And the running lane isn't a factor in this play; if this happened between 1B and 2B, I'd have the same call.

Last edited by jmkupka; Mon Jun 24, 2019 at 08:42am.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 24, 2019, 08:46am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Runner remaining upright, running into a fielder with the ball, is interference.

If the fielder did not keep control, was the runner interfering with fielding a batted ball.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 24, 2019, 08:48am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
The part I did question was the runner's use of the running lane. But I think it applies more to thrown balls if/when the runner is hit with a thrown ball.

There was a spike mark just past where the running lane begins that might indicate that the runner tried to veer to her right at the last moment. That spike mark was clearly in fair territory which is what the defensive coach argued.

Comments?
The running lane rule is about interfering with a play at 1st, not on the way and not specifically with getting hit with the ball.

I don't believe we should ever treat spike marks or footprints as conclusive.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 24, 2019, 09:20am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fremont, NH
Posts: 1,352
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
When a defensive player is in possession of the ball with the runner approaching, the runner is required to slide, avoid, or surrender.
I only work 2 sanctions: USA Softball and NFHS Softball. Neither of those "require" a runner to slide.

The wording in RS13 is that a runner "may" slide (etc.). Doesn't make any sense for a runner that is 28' from first base to slide. She cannot "return to the previous base" since she doesn't have one.
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 24, 2019, 09:22am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fremont, NH
Posts: 1,352
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Runner remaining upright, running into a fielder with the ball, is interference.

If the fielder did not keep control, was the runner interfering with fielding a batted ball.
Please read RS13.

I interpret "crashing" and "running into" differently.
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 24, 2019, 10:27am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
I only work 2 sanctions: USA Softball and NFHS Softball. Neither of those "require" a runner to slide.

The wording in RS13 is that a runner "may" slide (etc.). Doesn't make any sense for a runner that is 28' from first base to slide. She cannot "return to the previous base" since she doesn't have one.
He said "slide, avoid, or surrender."
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 24, 2019, 10:35am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 648
Wink

and I don't believe there's a stipulation that these actions have to occur anywhere near a base... only near that fielder holding the ball
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 24, 2019, 10:39am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fremont, NH
Posts: 1,352
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
He said "slide, avoid, or surrender."
Don't disagree with that.

Disagree with "required to slide". Lawsuits, anyone?
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 24, 2019, 12:21pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 648
exactly... the three go together. that's why I try to make it one long word when describing the rule... runner must slideavoidorsurrender
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 24, 2019, 01:16pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fremont, NH
Posts: 1,352
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
exactly... the three go together. that's why I try to make it one long word when describing the rule... runner must slideavoidorsurrender
JM, you're not getting it. You CANNOT mandate a player to slide.

Sliding is an acceptable avoidance technique, but if you said in your plate conference that runners MUST SLIDE to avoid contact - and they do - and get injured as a result, YOU are at fault.
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 24, 2019, 02:38pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 648
that should not be part of a pregame conference, but if asked to explain your call during a gamel, the verbiage in the book is always your best bet to use:

To prevent a deliberate crash ruling, the runner can slide, jump over
the top of the defender holding the ball, go around the defender or return to
the previous base touched.

NCAA

(my previous comment was intended to be tongue-in-cheek)

Last edited by jmkupka; Mon Jun 24, 2019 at 02:40pm.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 24, 2019, 11:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Northeast Nebraska
Posts: 776
IMO, for this situation, the runner's lane is irrelevant. What we have here is a train wreck. We have two options: INT or nothing. Without seeing the play, I'm leaning towards INT, as by rule, a runner who remains upright and contacts the fielder making a play is interference.
__________________
Powder blue since 1998. Longtime forum lurker.
Umpiring Goals: Call the knee strike accurately (getting the low pitch since 2017)/NCAA D1 postseason/ISF-WBSC Certification/Nat'l Indicator Fraternity(completed)
"I'm gonna call it ASA for the foreseeable future. You all know what I mean."
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 25, 2019, 10:02am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fremont, NH
Posts: 1,352
Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
IMO, for this situation, the runner's lane is irrelevant. What we have here is a train wreck. We have two options: INT or nothing. Without seeing the play, I'm leaning towards INT, as by rule, a runner who remains upright and contacts the fielder making a play is interference.
I probably could have sold this play as INT, but I didn't think it qualified under RS13.

"...a runner must be called out when they remain on their feet and crash into a defensive player who is holding the ball and waiting to apply a tag."

I view RS13 as the typical Pete Rose/Ray Fosse All Star play at the plate. Players used to be able to do that. Now, even MLB has changed that rule.

This play was BR arriving a split second after F3 managed to field the ball. I am in the "wreck" camp on this one.

One of those plays that no matter how you rule, the "other team" is gonna hate you.
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 25, 2019, 12:27pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 648
Trying to let the whole thing play itself out, if the fielder wasn't attempting to apply a tag, then she should still have had the opportunity to make a throw to the base (where the tag could be applied).

Either way, I think INT is the appropriate call.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
3 ft running lane bbman Softball 13 Thu Mar 21, 2019 09:58pm
running lane timeout Baseball 17 Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:31am
The Running Lane tcblue13 Softball 21 Sun Jul 15, 2007 01:46pm
Running Lane jicecone Baseball 7 Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:08pm
Running Lane Bandit Softball 5 Fri Feb 01, 2002 06:08pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:57am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1