You make the call: INT by BR on a potential IFF

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by teebob21

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIYXqFonTZ8

Question 1: When is a BR retired on an IFF? (I assert that it is at the ball's peak, when the IFF should be called)
Question 2: Does INT on a subsequent play by a fielder supercede an out via IFF on the BR?

IMO: They got this right, albeit sloppily. I will happily be proven wrong.

To question 1: At my first National, our UIC's posed this question. Many answers were put forth. On a ball near a foul line, we state "IF, if fair". That's the hint to the answer we were given. An that answer was: the batter is out once the status of the ball has been determined.

We would call the IF when the ball is at or close to its peak. But if the ball fell just to the right of the pitcher's circle while 3 fielders watched each other, it touched no fielder and bounded into foul territory before passing first base, all we have is a foul ball. (Which is why I simply call "Infield Fly!" or "Infield Fly, if Fair!" Then we have to wait to see if we have a fair ball or a foul ball, don't we?)

Personally, I'd have INT on the BR. If it was a fair ball, I'd also have the runner closest to home out. If it was a foul ball, I'd just have the BR out. I believe the BR hindered F3's attempt to catch the ball.

Question 2: Once there is an INT call, we have a dead ball. We cannot have "subsequent play". If it was a situation where infielders allowed the ball to hit the ground (intentionally or not) and while one of the defenders was run over by a runner trying to advance or return to her original base, I believe we'd have the BR out on IF and the runner out for INT on a defender making the initial play on a batted ball.

I've posted this scenario on this forum some time in the past. I presented it to KR at my very first NUS.

Bases loaded, less than 2 outs. The offense has this situation thought out in advance. Batter hits a towering pop up near the first base line. Runner from third immediately heads for home. BR runs towards first base. In this sequence: R1 crosses (touches) the plate; BR reaches out and intentionally swats the fair fly ball away from F3. KR's ruling was that BR is out on the IF, INT by a retired runner results in the runner closest to home at the time of the INT is out; since R1 scored prior to the INT, her run counts; R2 is declared out.

I've been waiting to see this play for years. Might never get to see it.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Question 2: Once there is an INT call, we have a dead ball. We cannot have "subsequent play". If it was a situation where infielders allowed the ball to hit the ground (intentionally or not) and while one of the defenders was run over by a runner trying to advance or return to her original base, I believe we'd have the BR out on IF and the runner out for INT on a defender making the initial play on a batted ball.

My question was regarding the infield fly being declared, and then the INT.

It was late, I was tired...I might not have posted the clearest question.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

To question 1: At my first National, our UIC's posed this question. Many answers were put forth. On a ball near a foul line, we state "IF, if fair". That's the hint to the answer we were given. An that answer was: the batter is out once the status of the ball has been determined.

Personally, I'd have INT on the BR. If it was a fair ball, I'd also have the runner closest to home out. If it was a foul ball, I'd just have the BR out. I believe the BR hindered F3's attempt to catch the ball.

This doesn't seem consistent. If you follow what the UIC said then the BR was not out at the time of the interference. Call her out twice if you want and then make your moral conundrum about whether you can circle both 2 and 3 in the same single space in the book. But I don't see how you manage to call somebody else out on this play.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Bases loaded, less than 2 outs. The offense has this situation thought out in advance. Batter hits a towering pop up near the first base line. Runner from third immediately heads for home. BR runs towards first base. In this sequence: R1 crosses (touches) the plate; BR reaches out and intentionally swats the fair fly ball away from F3. KR's ruling was that BR is out on the IF, INT by a retired runner results in the runner closest to home at the time of the INT is out; since R1 scored prior to the INT, her run counts; R2 is declared out.

I've been waiting to see this play for years. Might never get to see it.

Ted, I'm late to the party on this hypothetical, but I think KR's ruling is accurate, if there are no outs. 2 outs and a run go in the book. If there was one out, that leaves the open question: Can a run score on a play where the third out of the inning is due to INT and the BR does not reach 1B safely?

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Ted, I'm late to the party on this hypothetical, but I think KR's ruling is accurate, if there are no outs. 2 outs and a run go in the book. If there was one out, that leaves the open question: Can a run score on a play where the third out of the inning is due to INT and the BR does not reach 1B safely?

That is an excellent question. I think you may be on to something there.

As I dwell on this a bit, I think you're right. With 1 out, and the BR not reaching safely, no run should score.

Question #9 on this year's USA Umpire Exam is a supporting argument.

[CecilOne]

It continues to be obvious that IFR is a mess in both USA and NFHS books; but in spite of the above comment, the player is out when it is hit.
More later ...

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

It continues to be obvious that IFR is a mess in both USA and NFHS books; but in spite of the above comment, the player is out when it is hit.
More later ...

I still can't agree with that statement. When it is hit and reaches its zenith is when it should be called. A ball left to fall untouched that bounces into foul territory (before passing first or third) then has to un-call the batter being out.

I know NFHS has that wording in their rules book. Maybe it's there because nobody can figure out the proper way to describe how/when the batter runner should actually be called out?

I think the IF rule is clear enough until such time as INT and/or OBS enter into a situation. Then it gets a bit tougher to find/understand which rule(s) take precedence.

Had a know-it-all guy in a training session bring up an intentionally dropped ball in an IF situation. Still not sure about his argument, but most knowledgeable officials knew that the IF took precedence.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I still can't agree with that statement. When it is hit and reaches its zenith is when it should be called. A ball left to fall untouched that bounces into foul territory (before passing first or third) then has to un-call the batter being out.

NFHS Rule 8-2-5
The batter-runner shall be called out when:
ART. 9 . . . She hits an infield fly. (2-30)


It may take the umpires a moment to recognize it, but this rule is fairly clear that she's out when she hit it.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Altor

NFHS Rule 8-2-5
The batter-runner shall be called out when:
ART. 9 . . . She hits an infield fly. (2-30)


It may take the umpires a moment to recognize it, but this rule is fairly clear that she's out when she hit it.

Thank you, Altor. I already acknowledged the wording in the rules book.

But she's not out when she hits it, and then it bounces untouched to foul territory.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Altor

NFHS Rule 8-2-5
The batter-runner shall be called out when:
ART. 9 . . . She hits an infield fly. (2-30)


It may take the umpires a moment to recognize it, but this rule is fairly clear that she's out when she hit it.

And read rule NFHS 2-30 "Infield fly", specifically . . "a fair ball" and then read what makes a ball fair NFHS 2-20.

That's why we say: "Infield fly, the batter is out, IF FAIR". The batter isn't out until the ball is fair by NFHS 2-20 or USA 1 - Fair ball.

[jmkupka]

Yeah I think that's CecilOne's point... the batter is out as soon as it's hit, but according to our mechanics, it's not declared until the proper time.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

It continues to be obvious that IFR is a mess in both USA and NFHS books; but in spite of the above comment, the player is out when it is hit.
More later ...

Sorta, but . . .

You must remember what makes a batter out under the infield fly rule:
1. There must be less than 2 outs
2. must have runners on first and second, or bases loaded
3. The ball must be a fly ball (not a bunt or line drive), that can be caught with ordinary effort.
4. It must be a FAIR BALL.

Let's focus on point #4: what is a fair ball? In short, USA, NFHS and NCAA define a fair ball as a ball being touched over fair territory or settles on fair territory (I'm paraphrasing, as there are bounding ball, etc.).

Now let's go back to the play: bases loaded, less than two outs, BR hits a fly ball. As umpires, we state: "Infield Fly, batter is out . . . IF FAIR". Of course, we add the last two words if the ball is close to the line. That statement is a notice to the defense that we will apply the infield fly rule (and get this) when . . .the ball becomes FAIR. When the ball is in the air, the ball does not have fair/foul status, and thus, the BR is not out. When the ball is caught, it has fair status (actually, with the exception of a goofy U-trip slow pitch rule, a ball caught over fair or foul territory is still live). When the ball is touch over fair territory (not caught), it is fair. When the ball settles over fair territory, it is fair. If touched or settles over foul territory, it is foul.

If the BR interferes with F3 (or F2 or F1, or F9 ) playing the batted ball, the ball is dead, no need for fair/foul status because . . .

The BR interfering with a fielder making a play is covered under another rule (USA 8 2 F 1 for example). With or without the infield fly rule conditions, this is the rule to apply. Boom, the BR is out, runners return to their bases. Case closed (dun dun), Dick Wolf executive producer.

In the video, with way it played out, there are two options:

1. you call the BR for interference: dead ball, all runners return to the last base touched. ONLY the BR out.
or
2. you do not call the BR for interference, but since the ball is fair, the BR is out for the infield fly rule, the ball is live and the run scores.

NOTE: I'm not arguing either way for interference. Personally, I don't think it was interference, ergo, my option is #2.

The play in the video, as the way it played out, has ZERO ways of getting two outs. It would require the BR to be out and interfere as a retired runner at the same time (would be that "Schrödinger Bat-ter"?). The previously mentioned KR ruling where the BR did something out of the customary play, like deliberately interfering to take advantage of another rule, could provide you with two outs, but that really is third world.

There are ways of getting two outs: the BR, after the ball settles over fair territory, runs into F3 while she is picking it up; or BR kicks the ball that has settled over fair territory; or, the BR didn't run thinking the ball would be caught, F3 fails to catch the ball, the BR starts to run to first and gets hit with F3's throw home to retire an advancing R1. Since the ball is fair, the BR has become retired under the infield fly rule effect, became a retired runner, and has now interfered in the scenarios I just mentioned. But that's not what happened in the video.

[josephrt1]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

That is an excellent question. I think you may be on to something there.

As I dwell on this a bit, I think you're right. With 1 out, and the BR not reaching safely, no run should score.

Question #9 on this year's USA Umpire Exam is a supporting argument.

I think I would go a different direction on this. Batter is out when she hits an IFF. Then we had the INT. I think it is now a timing play, just like if the Batter had hit a fly ball that was caught. Batter is out but that is only the 2nd out. The next out on the interference becomes a timing play and runner who interfered is now the 3rd out (not the batter or batter/runner). If other runner already crossed the plate, I think we score the run.

Pretty tricky though.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Ted, I'm late to the party on this hypothetical, but I think KR's ruling is accurate, if there are no outs. 2 outs and a run go in the book. If there was one out, that leaves the open question: Can a run score on a play where the third out of the inning is due to INT and the BR does not reach 1B safely?

Hey TB21, you made me think on this one, so I'm going to return the favor.

When I think too much, I need to go back to the book.

5.5.B
No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:
1. A BR being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a batter-runner.

In our TWP, (and assuming already 1 out) when the BR interferes, she becomes the second out. Umpire determines her INT was an attempt to prevent a double play. But the runner from third has already touched home prior to the INT, so the next runner closest to home is at second base.

Now do we score the run?