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Old Tue Jun 04, 2019, 11:47pm
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You make the call: INT by BR on a potential IFF

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIYXqFonTZ8

Question 1: When is a BR retired on an IFF? (I assert that it is at the ball's peak, when the IFF should be called)
Question 2: Does INT on a subsequent play by a fielder supercede an out via IFF on the BR?

IMO: They got this right, albeit sloppily. I will happily be proven wrong.
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Last edited by teebob21; Tue Jun 04, 2019 at 11:58pm.
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Old Wed Jun 05, 2019, 07:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIYXqFonTZ8

Question 1: When is a BR retired on an IFF? (I assert that it is at the ball's peak, when the IFF should be called)
Question 2: Does INT on a subsequent play by a fielder supercede an out via IFF on the BR?

IMO: They got this right, albeit sloppily. I will happily be proven wrong.
To start, WTF is an IFF?

IMO, there was no INT, F3 simply misplayed the ball while the retired player did exactly what she was supposed to do
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Old Wed Jun 05, 2019, 08:07am
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Given a judgement of interference, they got the call right.
However, bad judgement........
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Old Wed Jun 05, 2019, 08:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIYXqFonTZ8

Question 1: When is a BR retired on an IFF? (I assert that it is at the ball's peak, when the IFF should be called)
Question 2: Does INT on a subsequent play by a fielder supercede an out via IFF on the BR?

IMO: They got this right, albeit sloppily. I will happily be proven wrong.
To question 1: At my first National, our UIC's posed this question. Many answers were put forth. On a ball near a foul line, we state "IF, if fair". That's the hint to the answer we were given. An that answer was: the batter is out once the status of the ball has been determined.

We would call the IF when the ball is at or close to its peak. But if the ball fell just to the right of the pitcher's circle while 3 fielders watched each other, it touched no fielder and bounded into foul territory before passing first base, all we have is a foul ball. (Which is why I simply call "Infield Fly!" or "Infield Fly, if Fair!" Then we have to wait to see if we have a fair ball or a foul ball, don't we?)

Personally, I'd have INT on the BR. If it was a fair ball, I'd also have the runner closest to home out. If it was a foul ball, I'd just have the BR out. I believe the BR hindered F3's attempt to catch the ball.

Question 2: Once there is an INT call, we have a dead ball. We cannot have "subsequent play". If it was a situation where infielders allowed the ball to hit the ground (intentionally or not) and while one of the defenders was run over by a runner trying to advance or return to her original base, I believe we'd have the BR out on IF and the runner out for INT on a defender making the initial play on a batted ball.

I've posted this scenario on this forum some time in the past. I presented it to KR at my very first NUS.

Bases loaded, less than 2 outs. The offense has this situation thought out in advance. Batter hits a towering pop up near the first base line. Runner from third immediately heads for home. BR runs towards first base. In this sequence: R1 crosses (touches) the plate; BR reaches out and intentionally swats the fair fly ball away from F3. KR's ruling was that BR is out on the IF, INT by a retired runner results in the runner closest to home at the time of the INT is out; since R1 scored prior to the INT, her run counts; R2 is declared out.

I've been waiting to see this play for years. Might never get to see it.
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Old Wed Jun 05, 2019, 08:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
To start, WTF is an IFF?

IMO, there was no INT, F3 simply misplayed the ball while the retired player did exactly what she was supposed to do
Don't you mean "WTFF"?
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Old Wed Jun 05, 2019, 08:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbie View Post
Given a judgement of interference, they got the call right.
However, bad judgement........
Ever play racquetball? Might also apply to squash or handball.

If your opponent gets in your way while you are trying to return a serve or volley, you may declare a "hinder".

In my judgment, BR hindered F3 and I have INT and BR out.
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Old Wed Jun 05, 2019, 08:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
Question 2: Once there is an INT call, we have a dead ball. We cannot have "subsequent play". If it was a situation where infielders allowed the ball to hit the ground (intentionally or not) and while one of the defenders was run over by a runner trying to advance or return to her original base, I believe we'd have the BR out on IF and the runner out for INT on a defender making the initial play on a batted ball.
My question was regarding the infield fly being declared, and then the INT.

It was late, I was tired...I might not have posted the clearest question.
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Old Wed Jun 05, 2019, 09:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
To question 1: At my first National, our UIC's posed this question. Many answers were put forth. On a ball near a foul line, we state "IF, if fair". That's the hint to the answer we were given. An that answer was: the batter is out once the status of the ball has been determined.

Personally, I'd have INT on the BR. If it was a fair ball, I'd also have the runner closest to home out. If it was a foul ball, I'd just have the BR out. I believe the BR hindered F3's attempt to catch the ball.
This doesn't seem consistent. If you follow what the UIC said then the BR was not out at the time of the interference. Call her out twice if you want and then make your moral conundrum about whether you can circle both 2 and 3 in the same single space in the book. But I don't see how you manage to call somebody else out on this play.
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Old Wed Jun 05, 2019, 09:55am
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USA has the following guidance in its 4/2009 edition of its Plays and Clarifications:

Quote:
We have received a question about an act of interference by a runner after an infield fly has been declared. The following occurs:

1. An infield fly is declared on a fly ball which can be caught by an infielder, pitcher or catcher with ordinary effort when first and second or first, second, and third occupied and less than two outs.
2. The ball must be fair for the out to be recorded on an infield fly.
3. If an act of interference happens by a runner in fair territory the ball becomes fair and then declared dead due to the interference.
4. The batter would be out because of the infield fly and the runner would be out on interference.
The key is what is in red. It's the runner's position when she interferes that is the determining factor whether or not the IFF is enforced after being announced. So if the ball drops uncaught following the interference ruling, and it rolls into foul territory untouched, the IFF ruling still prevails.

What's not clear, even under USA's guidance, is what happens when the BR is the person who interferes. Is she already out by virtue of the IFF declaration, and then her interference is considered interference by a retired runner? That's what it seems the crew called in this game. Or is she still an active runner despite the IFF declaration, and her violation only calls for her to be out, with all other runners returning?

Unfortunately, you don't have any guidance under NFHS, so the ruling in this game is really without any authoritative interpretation.
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Old Wed Jun 05, 2019, 11:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
What's not clear, even under USA's guidance, is what happens when the BR is the person who interferes. Is she already out by virtue of the IFF declaration, and then her interference is considered interference by a retired runner? That's what it seems the crew called in this game. Or is she still an active runner despite the IFF declaration, and her violation only calls for her to be out, with all other runners returning?

Unfortunately, you don't have any guidance under NFHS, so the ruling in this game is really without any authoritative interpretation.
So after sleeping on this, and going to the book...I'm now not sure. I thought this was the right call (for the reasons and rules below), but as others have pointed out: can we get 2 outs for INT by a BR retired by an infield fly whose status is as yet undetermined????

Relevant cites: NFHS 8-2-9: The batter is out when "She hits an infield fly (2-30)." (Editorial note: I interpret this as the batter is out when the infield fly is declared; not "hit".)

2-30: Infield Fly Rule: "Infield fly rule is, when ***declared*** by the umpire, a fair fly (not including a line drive or a attempted bunt) that can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort....(Editorial note: This continues, but it's basic infield fly language.) ... If a declared infield fly becomes foul, it is treated as a foul ball, not an infield fly."

From this, I believe the batter-runner is retired as soon as the batted ball is judged as an infield fly. The umpire's manual instructs us to make this declaration at the peak of the ball's flight...e.g., in this case BEFORE the INT occurs. Thus, the INT is committed by a retired runner.

INT by a retired runner leads us to NFHS 8-6-16 (c): After being declared out or after scoring, a runner interferes with a defender's opportunity to make a play on another runner. (snipped) PENALTY: The ball is dead and the runner closest to home plate shall be declared out. Each other runner must return to the last base touched at the time of interference.


Here's where I honestly could go either way...DID F3 have a play on another runner? I don't have enough information from the video to determine that. I can definitely support the judgment of INT by the BR...and I think that by rule, she was a retired runner at the time of INT. Does this sitch also meet the requirement of another play? I don't know.

Edit posted elsewhere: This case play shows us a potential gap in the rules and the umpire manual that I have posted on another official's page: "When, EXACTLY, is the BR out on an infield fly?"

Is it when declared, as the book says? It it when the ball status is eventually determined? Is it some potentially retroactive combination of the two?

From my initial post: When is a BR retired by infield fly actually retired? As a constructive literalist, I posit that the BR is retired when the call is declared (by any umpire) per the book. Said call can be reversed if the ball status ends up foul. That's my interp, and using that: the BR was retired at the time of INT on the popup, and runner closest to home is out.

As I posted before: I would be happy to be proven wrong. (And I hope this play never happens to me before I get a solid cite/interp from higher up)
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Last edited by teebob21; Thu Jun 06, 2019 at 11:53am.
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Old Wed Jun 05, 2019, 11:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
Bases loaded, less than 2 outs. The offense has this situation thought out in advance. Batter hits a towering pop up near the first base line. Runner from third immediately heads for home. BR runs towards first base. In this sequence: R1 crosses (touches) the plate; BR reaches out and intentionally swats the fair fly ball away from F3. KR's ruling was that BR is out on the IF, INT by a retired runner results in the runner closest to home at the time of the INT is out; since R1 scored prior to the INT, her run counts; R2 is declared out.

I've been waiting to see this play for years. Might never get to see it.
Ted, I'm late to the party on this hypothetical, but I think KR's ruling is accurate, if there are no outs. 2 outs and a run go in the book. If there was one out, that leaves the open question: Can a run score on a play where the third out of the inning is due to INT and the BR does not reach 1B safely?
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Last edited by teebob21; Thu Jun 06, 2019 at 12:03am.
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Old Thu Jun 06, 2019, 12:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
So after sleeping on this, and going to the book...I'm now not sure. I thought this was the right call (for the reasons and rules below), but as others have pointed out: can we get 2 outs for INT by a BR retired by an infield fly whose status is as yet undetermined????

Relevant cites: NFHS 8-2-9: The batter is out when "She hits an infield fly (2-30)." (Editorial note: I interpret this as the batter is out when the infield fly is declared; not "hit".)

2-30: Infield Fly Rule: "Infield fly rule is, when ***declared*** by the umpire, a fair fly (not including a line drive or a attempted bunt) that can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort....(Editorial note: This continues, but it's basic infield fly language.) ... If a declared infield fly becomes foul, it is treated as a foul ball, not an infield fly."

From this, I believe the batter-runner is retired as soon as the batted ball is judged as an infield fly. The umpire's manual instructs us to make this declaration at the peak of the ball's flight...e.g., in this case BEFORE the INT occurs. Thus, the INT is committed by a retired runner.

INT by a retired runner leads us to NFHS 8-6-16 (c): After being declared out or after scoring, a runner interferes with a defender's opportunity to make a play on another runner. (snipped) PENALTY: The ball is dead and the runner closest to home plate shall be declared out. Each other runner must return to the last base touched at the time of interference.


Here's where I honestly could go either way...DID F3 have a play on another runner? I don't have enough information from the video to determine that. I can definitely support the judgment of INT by the BR...and I think that by rule, she was a retired runner at the time of INT. Does this sitch also meet the requirement of another play? I don't know.
In my opinion, you cannot use out "when declared."
As we all know, an IFF can be called after the fact. A non call does not make an IFF not an IFF. In such case, the BR may not be declared out until after the play and after an umpire conference.
Granted, poor umpire execution, but true none the less.
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Old Thu Jun 06, 2019, 12:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbie View Post
In my opinion, you cannot use out "when declared."
As we all know, an IFF can be called after the fact. A non call does not make an IFF not an IFF. In such case, the BR may not be declared out until after the play and after an umpire conference.
Granted, poor umpire execution, but true none the less.
True, but in the case of a botched infield fly (under NFHS rules) I still assert that she is out "when declared". The rule says she's out when she hits it, but we all know that's not the case in reality. If it were, this play wouldn't be worth mentioning as a case play....I don't think anyone here would support that the BR was out at the moment of bat-ball contact (a "hit"). That's just not how the game works.

It might be five minutes after the at-bat in your example, and a coach might be getting ejected, but she is still out only "when declared".

Edit: Also, for what it's worth, I'm glad I'm not the only one who uses the "IFF" terminology, despite Mike's (valid) question
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Last edited by teebob21; Thu Jun 06, 2019 at 12:29am. Reason: typos and a dig at Irish
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Old Thu Jun 06, 2019, 07:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
Ted, I'm late to the party on this hypothetical, but I think KR's ruling is accurate, if there are no outs. 2 outs and a run go in the book. If there was one out, that leaves the open question: Can a run score on a play where the third out of the inning is due to INT and the BR does not reach 1B safely?

That is an excellent question. I think you may be on to something there.

As I dwell on this a bit, I think you're right. With 1 out, and the BR not reaching safely, no run should score.

Question #9 on this year's USA Umpire Exam is a supporting argument.
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Old Thu Jun 06, 2019, 10:35am
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It continues to be obvious that IFR is a mess in both USA and NFHS books; but in spite of the above comment, the player is out when it is hit.
More later ...
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