You make the call: INT by BR on a potential IFF

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Take a look at this. Seems there are a couple of plays that might shed a little light on this conversation.

https://www.teamusa.org/usa-softball...34F77D1AD&_z=z

Thanks Dave.

" . . . a batter is not out until the ball has been determined to be fair."

My observations:
The second play (runner interference), why would we need the Infield fly rule, when 8 7 J F covers the runner interference on either a fair or foul ball (both Runner and BR are out). 8 7 J F precludes any necessity for ball status for USA Softball (other codes are different).

In the third play (batter-runner interference), this seems to be covered under 8 2 F 1. Again, ball status is not needed.

Using either rule in each scenario gives you have the same effect.

[Tru_in_Blu]

" . . . a batter is not out until the ball has been determined to be fair."

Amen!

[Tru_in_Blu]

TB21 - haven't heard if you've reconsidered this scenario. Thoughts?

Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
Ted, I'm late to the party on this hypothetical, but I think KR's ruling is accurate, if there are no outs. 2 outs and a run go in the book. If there was one out, that leaves the open question: Can a run score on a play where the third out of the inning is due to INT and the BR does not reach 1B safely?


Hey TB21, you made me think on this one, so I'm going to return the favor.

When I think too much, I need to go back to the book.

5.5.B
No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:
1. A BR being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a batter-runner.

In our TWP, (and assuming already 1 out) when the BR interferes, she becomes the second out. Umpire determines her INT was an attempt to prevent a double play. But the runner from third has already touched home prior to the INT, so the next runner closest to home is at second base.

Now do we score the run?

[teebob21]

Replying to Ted as a placeholder as I go on vacation tomorrow and will not be able to get in the book

[CecilOne]

It took me a while to find time to read and reread this, but now. This applies to the OP, not to any added plays and tangents.

1) There is no interference by the BR in the OP video. She was past the fielder before the fielder began to move to her right.

2) As unlikely as I am to disagree with Big Slick, even with the Dick West ref., I still believe the out occurs at contact with the bat.

A batted ball can become many things, fair, foul, caught, not caught, in play, out of play, etc. All of those are determined by the force, angle and spin given the ball by the bat; including reacting to wind conditions, rocks on the field, slopes on the field and anything else present.

The fair/foul and other analogies above reinforce this view.

3) If there had actually been INT by the retired BR, R1 would be ruled out.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

It took me a while to find time to read and reread this, but now. This applies to the OP, not to any added plays and tangents.

1) There is no interference by the BR in the OP video. She was past the fielder before the fielder began to move to her right.

2) As unlikely as I am to disagree with Big Slick, even with the Dick West ref., I still believe the out occurs at contact with the bat.

A batted ball can become many things, fair, foul, caught, not caught, in play, out of play, etc. All of those are determined by the force, angle and spin given the ball by the bat; including reacting to wind conditions, rocks on the field, slopes on the field and anything else present.

The fair/foul and other analogies above reinforce this view.

3) If there had actually been INT by the retired BR, R1 would be ruled out.

#1 It may be your opinion the BR did not INT. "In MY judgment, BR did INT." To each his/her own interpretation.
#2 I think we now have "clarifications" on this. The out occurs once the ball status is determined despite the force, angle and spin given the ball by the bat; including reacting to wind conditions, rocks on the field, slopes on the field and anything else present.
#3 I think this is flat out incorrect. You may be confusing this with a runner on third base who interferes with a fielder attempting to catch a batted fly ball. USA Softball & NFHS differ slightly on this one. If the ball is fair and uncaught, both have batter out along w/ interfering runner. If the ball is foul, USA Softball has both out but NFHS has only runner out and if ball is not caught, a strike on the batter (with less than 2 strikes).

[Tru_in_Blu]

Sorry for the double post.

Not even sure how I did that.

Moderator can delete one of them if necessary.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

#1 It may be your opinion the BR did not INT. "In MY judgment, BR did INT." To each his/her own interpretation.

#2 I think we now have "clarifications" on this. The out occurs once the ball status is determined despite the force, angle and spin given the ball by the bat; including reacting to wind conditions, rocks on the field, slopes on the field and anything else present.

#3 I think this is flat out incorrect.

You may be confusing this with a runner on third base who interferes with a fielder attempting to catch a batted fly ball. USA Softball & NFHS differ slightly on this one. If the ball is fair and uncaught, both have batter out along w/ interfering runner. If the ball is foul, USA Softball has both out but NFHS has only runner out and if ball is not caught, a strike on the batter (with less than 2 strikes).

OK, you don't agree and you would call INT, always a judgment.
That of course, would make #3 incorrect for you as it is based on INT after the BR is out as in my #2.

It all depends on the interpretation of the IFR and judgment of the BR-F3 action; and we disagree on both.

I am not confusing this with 2 outs on a fly ball; just R1 "closest to home" after an out by the retired BR; IF INT had been ruled and the IFR rule puts the BR out before the INT call.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Sorry for the double post.

Not even sure how I did that.

Moderator can delete one of them if necessary.

You can delete your own post, in the edit function.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

It took me a while to find time to read and reread this, but now. This applies to the OP, not to any added plays and tangents.

1) There is no interference by the BR in the OP video. She was past the fielder before the fielder began to move to her right.

2) As unlikely as I am to disagree with Big Slick, even with the Dick West ref., I still believe the out occurs at contact with the bat.

A batted ball can become many things, fair, foul, caught, not caught, in play, out of play, etc. All of those are determined by the force, angle and spin given the ball by the bat; including reacting to wind conditions, rocks on the field, slopes on the field and anything else present.

The fair/foul and other analogies above reinforce this view.

3) If there had actually been INT by the retired BR, R1 would be ruled out.

Please read the USA Softball clarifications, and you will see that you are incorrect in #2 (and I do appreciate the compliment, and that you liked my Law and Order reference).

The question from this play always seems to be centered around when a batter is out on an infield fly. Since the definition of an infield fly states “A fair fly ball, not including a line drive or an attempted bunt, which can be caught by an infielder, pitcher or catcher with ordinary effort when first and second or first, second and third bases are occupied with less than two outs,” a batter is not out until the ball has been determined to be fair.

More so, the clarifications explicitly stated that if the BR interferes with a fielder trying to catch a fly ball, only the BR is out:

Play: R1 on 2B and R2 on 1B with one out. B4 hits a fly ball to F3. The umpire declares infield fly if fair. B4 runs into F3 before F3 is able to catch the fair fly ball.

Ruling: The ball is dead and B4 is out on the infield fly. Runners return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch. Rule 1 Definition Infield Fly, Rule 1 (D) Definition of a fair ball, Rule 8, Section 2J Rule 8, Section 2I.

Now, as for your #1 point, I also agree. In my judgement, and as the PU, I would not have interference. Therefore, I have R1 scoring and the game over.