You make the call: INT by BR on a potential IFF

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

It continues to be obvious that IFR is a mess in both USA and NFHS books; but in spite of the above comment, the player is out when it is hit.
More later ...

I still can't agree with that statement. When it is hit and reaches its zenith is when it should be called. A ball left to fall untouched that bounces into foul territory (before passing first or third) then has to un-call the batter being out.

I know NFHS has that wording in their rules book. Maybe it's there because nobody can figure out the proper way to describe how/when the batter runner should actually be called out?

I think the IF rule is clear enough until such time as INT and/or OBS enter into a situation. Then it gets a bit tougher to find/understand which rule(s) take precedence.

Had a know-it-all guy in a training session bring up an intentionally dropped ball in an IF situation. Still not sure about his argument, but most knowledgeable officials knew that the IF took precedence.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I still can't agree with that statement. When it is hit and reaches its zenith is when it should be called. A ball left to fall untouched that bounces into foul territory (before passing first or third) then has to un-call the batter being out.

NFHS Rule 8-2-5
The batter-runner shall be called out when:
ART. 9 . . . She hits an infield fly. (2-30)


It may take the umpires a moment to recognize it, but this rule is fairly clear that she's out when she hit it.

[jmkupka]

Yeah I think that's CecilOne's point... the batter is out as soon as it's hit, but according to our mechanics, it's not declared until the proper time.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Altor

NFHS Rule 8-2-5
The batter-runner shall be called out when:
ART. 9 . . . She hits an infield fly. (2-30)


It may take the umpires a moment to recognize it, but this rule is fairly clear that she's out when she hit it.

Thank you, Altor. I already acknowledged the wording in the rules book.

But she's not out when she hits it, and then it bounces untouched to foul territory.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Thank you, Altor. I already acknowledged the wording in the rules book.

But she's not out when she hits it, and then it bounces untouched to foul territory.

I'm starting to agree with Cecil that the rule as written is a potential mess.

Let's stick with what's on video: In a high school game, a BR hit an infield fly, which in the future would become a fair ball. By strict reading of NFHS 2-30, the batter is out (retired) at this point and the ball remains live. This player, the BR, then interferes with F3 attempting to make a play on a batted ball. The penalty for retired runner interference is, as we all know, runner closest to home is out.

Now, let's go hypothetical: In an IF situation, BR hits a fly ball that is over foul territory when she interferes with F3 making a play. Dead ball, one out (the BR), and all runners return to base last touched at TOI, right?

Hypothetical #2: In an IF situation BR hits a fly ball which is not caught before hitting the ground and rolls/spins foul. BR interferes with F3's attempt to field this foul ground ball. Dead ball; foul ball; add a strike only if there are not already 2, right?

[Altor]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

But she's not out when she hits it, and then it bounces untouched to foul territory.

Then she didn't hit an infield fly.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Altor

Then she didn't hit an infield fly.

Or in the NOTE:

When an infield fly is not initially called, the batter-runner is declared out if brought to the umpire's attention before the next pitch.

So the batter is out WHEN?

[Altor]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Or in the NOTE:

When an infield fly is not initially called, the batter-runner is declared out if brought to the umpire's attention before the next pitch.

So the batter is out WHEN?

When she hit the infield fly. Again, just because the umpire didn't recognize it immediately, doesn't mean she wasn't out.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Altor

When she hit the infield fly. Again, just because the umpire didn't recognize it immediately, doesn't mean she wasn't out.

There's language ambiguity about when she hit an infield fly. If I say: when she hits a ball that becomes an infield fly; that is unambiguous. If I say: when a ball she hits meets the conditions for an infield fly; that is unambiguous. What the rule says can be read both ways.

Consider for example if I say she hit the dugout with a foul ball. Surely the moment she hit it was when it touched the dugout. Not quite parallel structure but still reasonably read that way.

[KCRC]

Originally Posted by robbie

Given a judgement of interference, they got the call right.
However, bad judgement........

This is the correct answer. F3 was looking up at the ball and, in my judgement, had no idea that BR was even there. Bad luck for the crew that poor judgment was made at this situation in the game. But given the judgment, they made the correct ruling.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by youngump

Consider for example if I say she hit the dugout with a foul ball. Surely the moment she hit it was when it touched the dugout. Not quite parallel structure but still reasonably read that way.

Nope. This is a perfect example.

Rule 8-5-1:
A runner must return to the last base legally occupied when:
ART. 1 . . . A batted ball is foul.

So, a high popup over the third base dugout. R1 crosses home plate before the ball hits the dugout. Since the batted ball didn't become foul until the moment it touched the dugout, you score that run?

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Altor

Nope. This is a perfect example.

Rule 8-5-1:
A runner must return to the last base legally occupied when:
ART. 1 . . . A batted ball is foul.

So, a high popup over the third base dugout. R1 crosses home plate before the ball hits the dugout. Since the batted ball didn't become foul until the moment it touched the dugout, you score that run?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x-fkSYDtUY

[IRISHMAFIA]

IMO, it is an infield fly until it isn't, not the other way around

[josephrt1]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

That is an excellent question. I think you may be on to something there.

As I dwell on this a bit, I think you're right. With 1 out, and the BR not reaching safely, no run should score.

Question #9 on this year's USA Umpire Exam is a supporting argument.

I think I would go a different direction on this. Batter is out when she hits an IFF. Then we had the INT. I think it is now a timing play, just like if the Batter had hit a fly ball that was caught. Batter is out but that is only the 2nd out. The next out on the interference becomes a timing play and runner who interfered is now the 3rd out (not the batter or batter/runner). If other runner already crossed the plate, I think we score the run.

Pretty tricky though.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

It continues to be obvious that IFR is a mess in both USA and NFHS books; but in spite of the above comment, the player is out when it is hit.
More later ...

Sorta, but . . .

You must remember what makes a batter out under the infield fly rule:
1. There must be less than 2 outs
2. must have runners on first and second, or bases loaded
3. The ball must be a fly ball (not a bunt or line drive), that can be caught with ordinary effort.
4. It must be a FAIR BALL.

Let's focus on point #4: what is a fair ball? In short, USA, NFHS and NCAA define a fair ball as a ball being touched over fair territory or settles on fair territory (I'm paraphrasing, as there are bounding ball, etc.).

Now let's go back to the play: bases loaded, less than two outs, BR hits a fly ball. As umpires, we state: "Infield Fly, batter is out . . . IF FAIR". Of course, we add the last two words if the ball is close to the line. That statement is a notice to the defense that we will apply the infield fly rule (and get this) when . . .the ball becomes FAIR. When the ball is in the air, the ball does not have fair/foul status, and thus, the BR is not out. When the ball is caught, it has fair status (actually, with the exception of a goofy U-trip slow pitch rule, a ball caught over fair or foul territory is still live). When the ball is touch over fair territory (not caught), it is fair. When the ball settles over fair territory, it is fair. If touched or settles over foul territory, it is foul.

If the BR interferes with F3 (or F2 or F1, or F9 ) playing the batted ball, the ball is dead, no need for fair/foul status because . . .

The BR interfering with a fielder making a play is covered under another rule (USA 8 2 F 1 for example). With or without the infield fly rule conditions, this is the rule to apply. Boom, the BR is out, runners return to their bases. Case closed (dun dun), Dick Wolf executive producer.

In the video, with way it played out, there are two options:

1. you call the BR for interference: dead ball, all runners return to the last base touched. ONLY the BR out.
or
2. you do not call the BR for interference, but since the ball is fair, the BR is out for the infield fly rule, the ball is live and the run scores.

NOTE: I'm not arguing either way for interference. Personally, I don't think it was interference, ergo, my option is #2.

The play in the video, as the way it played out, has ZERO ways of getting two outs. It would require the BR to be out and interfere as a retired runner at the same time (would be that "Schrödinger Bat-ter"?). The previously mentioned KR ruling where the BR did something out of the customary play, like deliberately interfering to take advantage of another rule, could provide you with two outs, but that really is third world.

There are ways of getting two outs: the BR, after the ball settles over fair territory, runs into F3 while she is picking it up; or BR kicks the ball that has settled over fair territory; or, the BR didn't run thinking the ball would be caught, F3 fails to catch the ball, the BR starts to run to first and gets hit with F3's throw home to retire an advancing R1. Since the ball is fair, the BR has become retired under the infield fly rule effect, became a retired runner, and has now interfered in the scenarios I just mentioned. But that's not what happened in the video.