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Old Wed May 29, 2019, 09:05am
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Delayed Dead Ball

2 outs. R1 from 3B is obstructed coming home and is put out at HP. "Dead ball, obstruction, runner is protected to the plate." However, R2 from 1B is continuing on around 2nd into 3B. Overthrow at 3B, and she scores.

DC, of course, wants to know why R2 can continue running when we just called Dead Ball.

What should be the exact mechanic at the plate, as far as delaying the DDB and allowing other action to complete?


The reason I mention 2 outs, is that I can't call "Out" and end the inning, can't call "Dead Ball" because there's likely more action (why deny R2's attempt to come home?), can't say Obstruction, Safe, because that's not in the book.

Last edited by jmkupka; Wed May 29, 2019 at 09:10am.
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Old Wed May 29, 2019, 09:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
2 outs. R1 from 3B is obstructed coming home and is put out at HP. "Dead ball, obstruction, runner is protected to the plate." However, R2 from 1B is continuing on around 2nd into 3B. Overthrow at 3B, and she scores.

DC, of course, wants to know why R2 can continue running when we just called Dead Ball.

What should be the exact mechanic at the plate, as far as delaying the DDB and allowing other action to complete?
Don't announce "dead ball" if it isn't yet.
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Old Wed May 29, 2019, 09:43am
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The ball is dead immediately when an obstructed runner is "put out". Other runners must return to the base last touched when the ball is dead.

Why deny R2's attempt to come home? Because by rule the ball is dead. Runners cannot advance during a dead ball except on base awards and home runs (there may be other examples that I have left out).

The mechanics as I would do them:
R1 from 3B is obstructed. PU signals DDB with the left arm + fist extended at shoulder height, fingers forward. (You're probably also holding your mask, so just stick it out there. PU vocalizes "Obstruction" loud enough for nearby participants to hear. I am also OK with a point on this with the right hand. After signalling the DDB, hold it for a couple seconds and drop the DDB signal...we don't need to run around out there like a mannequin.

OBS R1 is played on and put out before scoring. PU signals Dead Ball, and vocalizes "Dead Ball! This runner is obstructed!" Take a short second to scan the field, as you need to know where the other runners are at the time you kill it. During this second or so, make sure play stops. If necessary, repeat the Dead Ball call.

Point at the OBS runner with the right hand, then point at the plate. Vocalize, "The award is home."

Point at R2, wherever she is. Vocalize "That runner: second base." Point to second. Edit to add: If the umpire judges R2 would have safely reached another base absent the obstruction, award that base instead. The mechanic is the same.
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Last edited by teebob21; Wed May 29, 2019 at 01:46pm. Reason: I goofed a portion of the OBS award rule
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Old Wed May 29, 2019, 09:57am
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The only nit I have with the previous post is that the USA mechanic instructs us to call "time" instead of "dead ball". The result is the same.

I don't know if other sanctions have differing mechanics.

D. Obstruction:
The base umpire should immediately:
1. Give the “Delayed Dead Ball” signal and verbally say “obstruction”. The signal need not be held throughout the play, but just long enough for it to be seen.
2. If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the bases they would have reached had there been no obstruction, the umpire shall call “time” and award the obstructed runner and all other runners, the base they would have reached had there been no obstruction.
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Old Wed May 29, 2019, 10:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
The only nit I have with the previous post is that the USA mechanic instructs us to call "time" instead of "dead ball". The result is the same.

I don't know if other sanctions have differing mechanics.

D. Obstruction:
The base umpire should immediately:
1. Give the “Delayed Dead Ball” signal and verbally say “obstruction”. The signal need not be held throughout the play, but just long enough for it to be seen.
2. If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the bases they would have reached had there been no obstruction, the umpire shall call “time” and award the obstructed runner and all other runners, the base they would have reached had there been no obstruction.
Interesting that's the umpire manual language. In accordance with the rule:
8 5 B 2 Effect A: The ball is DEAD.

I know, I know, the big "time" vs. "dead ball" debate.
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Old Wed May 29, 2019, 10:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Slick View Post
I know, I know, the big "time" vs. "dead ball" debate.
Agreed. When time is called, the ball is dead. And while not "alive", not live.
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Old Wed May 29, 2019, 11:51am
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"Time!", "That's obstruction! You (point at runner on 3rd base), score! You ( point at runner from 1st base), score on the ball out of play!" R2 is awarded home, because she had reached 2B at the time of the overthrow. Therefore, 2 runners score on the play.
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Old Wed May 29, 2019, 11:54am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
"Time!", "That's obstruction! You (point at runner on 3rd base), score! You ( point at runner from 1st base), score on the ball out of play!" R2 is awarded home, because she had reached 2B at the time of the overthrow. Therefore, 2 runners score on the play.
Sorry, nope.
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Old Wed May 29, 2019, 12:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
"Time!", "That's obstruction! You (point at runner on 3rd base), score! You ( point at runner from 1st base), score on the ball out of play!" R2 is awarded home, because she had reached 2B at the time of the overthrow. Therefore, 2 runners score on the play.
The ball was dead before the overthrow.
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Old Wed May 29, 2019, 01:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
The ball is dead immediately when an obstructed runner is "put out". Other runners must return to the base last touched when the ball is dead.

Why deny R2's attempt to come home? Because by rule the ball is dead. Runners cannot advance during a dead ball except on base awards and home runs (there may be other examples that I have left out).

The mechanics as I would do them:
R1 from 3B is obstructed. PU signals DDB with the left arm + fist extended at shoulder height, fingers forward. (You're probably also holding your mask, so just stick it out there. PU vocalizes "Obstruction" loud enough for nearby participants to hear. I am also OK with a point on this with the right hand. After signalling the DDB, hold it for a couple seconds and drop the DDB signal...we don't need to run around out there like a mannequin.

OBS R1 is played on and put out before scoring. PU signals Dead Ball, and vocalizes "Dead Ball! This runner is obstructed!" Take a short second to scan the field, as you need to know where the other runners are at the time you kill it. During this second or so, make sure play stops. If necessary, repeat the Dead Ball call.

Point at the OBS runner with the right hand, then point at the plate. Vocalize, "The award is home."

Point at R2, wherever she is. Vocalize "That runner: second base." Point to second.
Does this ruling also apply to baseball?
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Old Wed May 29, 2019, 01:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbman View Post
Does this ruling also apply to baseball?
I'm not a baseball guy, so this could be 100% wrong. In baseball, this is Type A OBS (OBS on a runner being actively played upon, to my limited understanding), and the ball is dead when the OBS runner is played upon and put out. A baseball guy will correct me if this is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
2. If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the bases they would have reached had there been no obstruction, the umpire shall call “time” and award the obstructed runner and all other runners, the base they would have reached had there been no obstruction.
^^ This is correct...I did not check the manual when I posted my reply, and I forgot this was the case. Depending on how far past 2B R2 had made it, I can see a scenario where R2 is awarded 3B, rather than 2B. Since the ball died when it was at the plate, I can't under any circumstance award her home. Absent the obstruction, she'd have never reached home safely. The ball was there when it became dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
"Time!", "That's obstruction! You (point at runner on 3rd base), score! You ( point at runner from 1st base), score on the ball out of play!" R2 is awarded home, because she had reached 2B at the time of the overthrow. Therefore, 2 runners score on the play.
The important thing is that the overthrow is IRRELEVANT. It happened after play was, by rule, dead. I didn't see in OPs post that the overthrow went out of play, but F2 might have thrown the ball to the moon...we still can't rule on that. Based on this play description, only OBS R1 scores.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Slick View Post
Interesting that's the umpire manual language. In accordance with the rule:
8 5 B 2 Effect A: The ball is DEAD.

I know, I know, the big "time" vs. "dead ball" debate.
I won't touch this debate with a 60-foot pole. All I know is, in softball, you'll never go wrong killing live play with "Dead ball". "Time" is for a timeout or stoppage of a potential play, such as a conference, sweeping the plate, or catastrophic injury....or slowpitch.
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Last edited by teebob21; Wed May 29, 2019 at 01:45pm.
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Old Wed May 29, 2019, 03:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
"Time!", "That's obstruction! You (point at runner on 3rd base), score! You ( point at runner from 1st base), score on the ball out of play!" R2 is awarded home, because she had reached 2B at the time of the overthrow. Therefore, 2 runners score on the play.
Please reread the OP and consider the effect of a dead ball.
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Old Wed May 29, 2019, 03:21pm
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Quote:
Other runners must return to the base last touched when the ball is dead.
This statement is not necessarily true. The obstruction rule states the obstructed runner and all other runner affected by the obstruction shall be awarded the base or bases they would have reached absent the obstruction. If that runner was close enough to 3rd that there was no way a throw was going to beat them when the ball became dead, have they not been affected by the obstruction?
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Old Thu May 30, 2019, 09:36am
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Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
This statement is not necessarily true. The obstruction rule states the obstructed runner and all other runner affected by the obstruction shall be awarded the base or bases they would have reached absent the obstruction. If that runner was close enough to 3rd that there was no way a throw was going to beat them when the ball became dead, have they not been affected by the obstruction?
This is why I like the NCAA rule on obstruction. They have a stipulation that if a runner is more than halfway to the next base when the umpire kills play due to the obstructed runner being put out, she is advanced to that next base. If not, then she is returned to her previous base unless forced.

Not sure why other sanctions don't have similar language in their obstruction rule.
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Old Thu May 30, 2019, 11:59am
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Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
This is why I like the NCAA rule on obstruction. They have a stipulation that if a runner is more than halfway to the next base when the umpire kills play due to the obstructed runner being put out, she is advanced to that next base. If not, then she is returned to her previous base unless forced.

Not sure why other sanctions don't have similar language in their obstruction rule.
It used to be, it was called "the rule of thumb." I can't remember when it was deleted, but it was there when I started, circa 1995.
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