The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 29, 2019, 09:05am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 648
Delayed Dead Ball

2 outs. R1 from 3B is obstructed coming home and is put out at HP. "Dead ball, obstruction, runner is protected to the plate." However, R2 from 1B is continuing on around 2nd into 3B. Overthrow at 3B, and she scores.

DC, of course, wants to know why R2 can continue running when we just called Dead Ball.

What should be the exact mechanic at the plate, as far as delaying the DDB and allowing other action to complete?


The reason I mention 2 outs, is that I can't call "Out" and end the inning, can't call "Dead Ball" because there's likely more action (why deny R2's attempt to come home?), can't say Obstruction, Safe, because that's not in the book.

Last edited by jmkupka; Wed May 29, 2019 at 09:10am.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 29, 2019, 09:10am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,236
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
2 outs. R1 from 3B is obstructed coming home and is put out at HP. "Dead ball, obstruction, runner is protected to the plate." However, R2 from 1B is continuing on around 2nd into 3B. Overthrow at 3B, and she scores.

DC, of course, wants to know why R2 can continue running when we just called Dead Ball.

What should be the exact mechanic at the plate, as far as delaying the DDB and allowing other action to complete?
Don't announce "dead ball" if it isn't yet.
__________________
Rich Ives
Different does not equate to wrong
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 29, 2019, 09:43am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Northeast Nebraska
Posts: 776
The ball is dead immediately when an obstructed runner is "put out". Other runners must return to the base last touched when the ball is dead.

Why deny R2's attempt to come home? Because by rule the ball is dead. Runners cannot advance during a dead ball except on base awards and home runs (there may be other examples that I have left out).

The mechanics as I would do them:
R1 from 3B is obstructed. PU signals DDB with the left arm + fist extended at shoulder height, fingers forward. (You're probably also holding your mask, so just stick it out there. PU vocalizes "Obstruction" loud enough for nearby participants to hear. I am also OK with a point on this with the right hand. After signalling the DDB, hold it for a couple seconds and drop the DDB signal...we don't need to run around out there like a mannequin.

OBS R1 is played on and put out before scoring. PU signals Dead Ball, and vocalizes "Dead Ball! This runner is obstructed!" Take a short second to scan the field, as you need to know where the other runners are at the time you kill it. During this second or so, make sure play stops. If necessary, repeat the Dead Ball call.

Point at the OBS runner with the right hand, then point at the plate. Vocalize, "The award is home."

Point at R2, wherever she is. Vocalize "That runner: second base." Point to second. Edit to add: If the umpire judges R2 would have safely reached another base absent the obstruction, award that base instead. The mechanic is the same.
__________________
Powder blue since 1998. Longtime forum lurker.
Umpiring Goals: Call the knee strike accurately (getting the low pitch since 2017)/NCAA D1 postseason/ISF-WBSC Certification/Nat'l Indicator Fraternity(completed)
"I'm gonna call it ASA for the foreseeable future. You all know what I mean."

Last edited by teebob21; Wed May 29, 2019 at 01:46pm. Reason: I goofed a portion of the OBS award rule
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 29, 2019, 09:57am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fremont, NH
Posts: 1,352
The only nit I have with the previous post is that the USA mechanic instructs us to call "time" instead of "dead ball". The result is the same.

I don't know if other sanctions have differing mechanics.

D. Obstruction:
The base umpire should immediately:
1. Give the “Delayed Dead Ball” signal and verbally say “obstruction”. The signal need not be held throughout the play, but just long enough for it to be seen.
2. If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the bases they would have reached had there been no obstruction, the umpire shall call “time” and award the obstructed runner and all other runners, the base they would have reached had there been no obstruction.
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 29, 2019, 10:31am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
The only nit I have with the previous post is that the USA mechanic instructs us to call "time" instead of "dead ball". The result is the same.

I don't know if other sanctions have differing mechanics.

D. Obstruction:
The base umpire should immediately:
1. Give the “Delayed Dead Ball” signal and verbally say “obstruction”. The signal need not be held throughout the play, but just long enough for it to be seen.
2. If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the bases they would have reached had there been no obstruction, the umpire shall call “time” and award the obstructed runner and all other runners, the base they would have reached had there been no obstruction.
Interesting that's the umpire manual language. In accordance with the rule:
8 5 B 2 Effect A: The ball is DEAD.

I know, I know, the big "time" vs. "dead ball" debate.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 29, 2019, 10:50am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fremont, NH
Posts: 1,352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Slick View Post
I know, I know, the big "time" vs. "dead ball" debate.
Agreed. When time is called, the ball is dead. And while not "alive", not live.
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 29, 2019, 11:51am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 1,139
"Time!", "That's obstruction! You (point at runner on 3rd base), score! You ( point at runner from 1st base), score on the ball out of play!" R2 is awarded home, because she had reached 2B at the time of the overthrow. Therefore, 2 runners score on the play.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 29, 2019, 11:54am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fremont, NH
Posts: 1,352
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
"Time!", "That's obstruction! You (point at runner on 3rd base), score! You ( point at runner from 1st base), score on the ball out of play!" R2 is awarded home, because she had reached 2B at the time of the overthrow. Therefore, 2 runners score on the play.
Sorry, nope.
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 29, 2019, 12:12pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
"Time!", "That's obstruction! You (point at runner on 3rd base), score! You ( point at runner from 1st base), score on the ball out of play!" R2 is awarded home, because she had reached 2B at the time of the overthrow. Therefore, 2 runners score on the play.
The ball was dead before the overthrow.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 29, 2019, 01:16pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
The ball is dead immediately when an obstructed runner is "put out". Other runners must return to the base last touched when the ball is dead.

Why deny R2's attempt to come home? Because by rule the ball is dead. Runners cannot advance during a dead ball except on base awards and home runs (there may be other examples that I have left out).

The mechanics as I would do them:
R1 from 3B is obstructed. PU signals DDB with the left arm + fist extended at shoulder height, fingers forward. (You're probably also holding your mask, so just stick it out there. PU vocalizes "Obstruction" loud enough for nearby participants to hear. I am also OK with a point on this with the right hand. After signalling the DDB, hold it for a couple seconds and drop the DDB signal...we don't need to run around out there like a mannequin.

OBS R1 is played on and put out before scoring. PU signals Dead Ball, and vocalizes "Dead Ball! This runner is obstructed!" Take a short second to scan the field, as you need to know where the other runners are at the time you kill it. During this second or so, make sure play stops. If necessary, repeat the Dead Ball call.

Point at the OBS runner with the right hand, then point at the plate. Vocalize, "The award is home."

Point at R2, wherever she is. Vocalize "That runner: second base." Point to second.
Does this ruling also apply to baseball?
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 29, 2019, 01:41pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Northeast Nebraska
Posts: 776
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbman View Post
Does this ruling also apply to baseball?
I'm not a baseball guy, so this could be 100% wrong. In baseball, this is Type A OBS (OBS on a runner being actively played upon, to my limited understanding), and the ball is dead when the OBS runner is played upon and put out. A baseball guy will correct me if this is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
2. If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the bases they would have reached had there been no obstruction, the umpire shall call “time” and award the obstructed runner and all other runners, the base they would have reached had there been no obstruction.
^^ This is correct...I did not check the manual when I posted my reply, and I forgot this was the case. Depending on how far past 2B R2 had made it, I can see a scenario where R2 is awarded 3B, rather than 2B. Since the ball died when it was at the plate, I can't under any circumstance award her home. Absent the obstruction, she'd have never reached home safely. The ball was there when it became dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
"Time!", "That's obstruction! You (point at runner on 3rd base), score! You ( point at runner from 1st base), score on the ball out of play!" R2 is awarded home, because she had reached 2B at the time of the overthrow. Therefore, 2 runners score on the play.
The important thing is that the overthrow is IRRELEVANT. It happened after play was, by rule, dead. I didn't see in OPs post that the overthrow went out of play, but F2 might have thrown the ball to the moon...we still can't rule on that. Based on this play description, only OBS R1 scores.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Slick View Post
Interesting that's the umpire manual language. In accordance with the rule:
8 5 B 2 Effect A: The ball is DEAD.

I know, I know, the big "time" vs. "dead ball" debate.
I won't touch this debate with a 60-foot pole. All I know is, in softball, you'll never go wrong killing live play with "Dead ball". "Time" is for a timeout or stoppage of a potential play, such as a conference, sweeping the plate, or catastrophic injury....or slowpitch.
__________________
Powder blue since 1998. Longtime forum lurker.
Umpiring Goals: Call the knee strike accurately (getting the low pitch since 2017)/NCAA D1 postseason/ISF-WBSC Certification/Nat'l Indicator Fraternity(completed)
"I'm gonna call it ASA for the foreseeable future. You all know what I mean."

Last edited by teebob21; Wed May 29, 2019 at 01:45pm.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 29, 2019, 03:07pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
"Time!", "That's obstruction! You (point at runner on 3rd base), score! You ( point at runner from 1st base), score on the ball out of play!" R2 is awarded home, because she had reached 2B at the time of the overthrow. Therefore, 2 runners score on the play.
Please reread the OP and consider the effect of a dead ball.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 29, 2019, 03:21pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,340
Quote:
Other runners must return to the base last touched when the ball is dead.
This statement is not necessarily true. The obstruction rule states the obstructed runner and all other runner affected by the obstruction shall be awarded the base or bases they would have reached absent the obstruction. If that runner was close enough to 3rd that there was no way a throw was going to beat them when the ball became dead, have they not been affected by the obstruction?
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 30, 2019, 09:36am
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
This statement is not necessarily true. The obstruction rule states the obstructed runner and all other runner affected by the obstruction shall be awarded the base or bases they would have reached absent the obstruction. If that runner was close enough to 3rd that there was no way a throw was going to beat them when the ball became dead, have they not been affected by the obstruction?
This is why I like the NCAA rule on obstruction. They have a stipulation that if a runner is more than halfway to the next base when the umpire kills play due to the obstructed runner being put out, she is advanced to that next base. If not, then she is returned to her previous base unless forced.

Not sure why other sanctions don't have similar language in their obstruction rule.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 30, 2019, 11:59am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
This is why I like the NCAA rule on obstruction. They have a stipulation that if a runner is more than halfway to the next base when the umpire kills play due to the obstructed runner being put out, she is advanced to that next base. If not, then she is returned to her previous base unless forced.

Not sure why other sanctions don't have similar language in their obstruction rule.
It used to be, it was called "the rule of thumb." I can't remember when it was deleted, but it was there when I started, circa 1995.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Interference by runner, delayed dead ball chapmaja Softball 6 Thu May 26, 2016 03:11pm
Delayed Dead Ball play Al Dugan Baseball 38 Thu May 19, 2016 11:26am
Delayed Dead ball NFHS zebra2955 Baseball 8 Thu May 07, 2015 12:37am
Delayed Dead Ball or Not? harmbu Baseball 37 Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:22am
Delayed Dead Ball signal for OBS Bluefoot Softball 5 Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:06pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:53pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1