The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 13, 2019, 09:44pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 7,602
Illegal Pitch Play.

From the OhioHSAA Softball Bulletin 2019-1:

Play #5: B1 hits an Illegal Pitch for a Double. B1 misses 1B and is called out on Appeal. Since B1 did not reach 1B safely, is the Illegal Pitch nullified or is there an option?

What say you?

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio

Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Thu Mar 14, 2019 at 05:46pm. Reason: Made spelling correction.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 13, 2019, 09:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Northeast Nebraska
Posts: 694
deleted
__________________
Powder blue since 1998. Longtime forum lurker.
Umpiring Goals: Call the knee strike accurately (getting the low pitch since 2017)/NCAA D1 postseason/ISF-WBSC Certification/Nat'l Indicator Fraternity(completed)
"I'm gonna call it ASA for the foreseeable future. You all know what I mean."

Last edited by teebob21; Wed Mar 13, 2019 at 10:04pm.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 594
The illegal pitch penalty is enforced. Because the batter and all runners did not advance at least one base safely, the illegal pitch penalty takes precedence. The batter returns to the plate with 1 ball added to the count. If the illegal pitch results in Ball 4, the batter is awarded 1st base on the base on balls, and runners advance if forced.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 14, 2019, 05:03am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,317
B1 did reach first base safely but missed it. By rule she is assumed to have touched the base until properly appealed. The appeal stands and B1 is out.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 14, 2019, 08:00am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Derry, NH
Posts: 1,136
Good one. I initially thought no option would be given and the batter declared out.

Then I thought (always dangerous) what if we started with a runner on second and 2 outs? Otherwise the same. BR misses first base, defense appeals, BR is ruled out. Does the run score? 9-1-1-d? Now is there an option?
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 14, 2019, 09:12am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 500
There is no option on this play (IP is nullified), as the batter-runner achieved first base safely. She just choose not to touch it, which is a separate violation in which she would be out on an appeal. As someone stated, a player is assumed to have touched the base when they pass the base, ergo, she touched first base.

This is a common misconception. The crew missed this exact play in a DIII regional (more than 5 years ago --- purposely vague to not implicate the crew, and let's just say this particular play got a "pass" because of the S-storm that was apart of that particular regional).

For those who think that missing the base absolves her of "achieving a base safely" -- how can violating one rule benefit any player?
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 14, 2019, 09:15am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
Good one. I initially thought no option would be given and the batter declared out.

Then I thought (always dangerous) what if we started with a runner on second and 2 outs? Otherwise the same. BR misses first base, defense appeals, BR is ruled out. Does the run score? 9-1-1-d? Now is there an option?
No and No. No option because both the BR and runner advanced at least one base (nullifies the IP). Then BR called out for missing first base on appeal; no runs can score because of the third out on BR at first. Same ruling in USA/NFHS/NCAA.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 14, 2019, 10:32am
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 7,602
For those who do not believe that the is "no" option for the Offense.

Aren't you forgetting:

NFHS R2-S1-A10 says: "Missing First Base Before the Throw Arrives. If a runner passes first base before the throw arrives, she is considered to have touched the base unless an appeal is made. If an appeal is made, it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live."

What does R2-S1-A10 tell us?

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 14, 2019, 01:07pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Derry, NH
Posts: 1,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Aren't you forgetting:

NFHS R2-S1-A10 says: "Missing First Base Before the Throw Arrives. If a runner passes first base before the throw arrives, she is considered to have touched the base unless an appeal is made. If an appeal is made, it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live."

What does R2-S1-A10 tell us?

MTD, Sr.
Not sure where you're going with this. The rule you cited tells us pretty much the story.
  • Live ball appeal?
  • A play was being made on the BR @ 1B?
  • BR stayed at or near 1B? i.e. not trying to stretch a hit
  • Base umpire should initially rule safe and then wait to see if the appeal is made?
  • Cannot call time out as the ball is still live? (Assuming no catastrophic injury.)
  • I give up. What DOES R2-S1-A10 tell us?
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 14, 2019, 06:31pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 7,602
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
From the OhioHSAA Softball Bulletin 2019-1:

Play #5: B1 hits an Illegal Pitch for a Double. B1 misses 1B and is called out on Appeal. Since B1 did not reach 1B safely, is the Illegal Pitch nullified or is there an option?

What say you?

MTD, Sr.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Aren't you forgetting:

NFHS R2-S1-A10 says: "Missing First Base Before the Throw Arrives. If a runner passes first base before the throw arrives, she is considered to have touched the base unless an appeal is made. If an appeal is made, it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live."

What does R2-S1-A10 tell us?

MTD, Sr.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
Not sure where you're going with this. The rule you cited tells us pretty much the story.
  • Live ball appeal?
  • A play was being made on the BR @ 1B?
  • BR stayed at or near 1B? i.e. not trying to stretch a hit
  • Base umpire should initially rule safe and then wait to see if the appeal is made?
  • Cannot call time out as the ball is still live? (Assuming no catastrophic injury.)
  • I give up. What DOES R2-S1-A10 tell us?

Please read the red portion of R2-S1-A10 above, it says "she is considered to have touched the base unless an appeal has been made". The successful Appeal means that B1 was put out before touching 1B. Therefore let us go to R6-S1-A1, PENALTY, EXCEPTION 1 which says: "If the batter reaches first base safely and each other runner advances at least one base, the illegal pitch is nullified. All action stands and the illegal pitch is canceled." B1 did not reach 1B safely because of the successful Appeal by the Defense, therefore, the Offense does have an option: i) Take the result of the Play or ii) Negate the out by B1 with B1's At Bat continuing with a Ball added to her Ball/Strike count.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 15, 2019, 07:57am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Please read the red portion of R2-S1-A10 above, it says "she is considered to have touched the base unless an appeal has been made". The successful Appeal means that B1 was put out before touching 1B. Therefore let us go to R6-S1-A1, PENALTY, EXCEPTION 1 which says: "If the batter reaches first base safely and each other runner advances at least one base, the illegal pitch is nullified. All action stands and the illegal pitch is canceled." B1 did not reach 1B safely because of the successful Appeal by the Defense, therefore, the Offense does have an option: i) Take the result of the Play or ii) Negate the out by B1 with B1's At Bat continuing with a Ball added to her Ball/Strike count.

MTD, Sr.
Very much incorrect. She reached first base safely, but ruled out because she violated another rule. How can team benefit from breaking a rule?

Here is the NCAA AR (and this would the same in USA and NFHS):
Quote:
A.R. 10-8. With two outs and no one on base, the pitcher throws an illegal pitch. The batter hits to the outfield and successfully gains second base. However, the batter-runner missed first base and the defense makes a live ball appeal to get the third out. Does the offense have an option to take the result of the play or return the batter to the batter’s box from the illegal pitch because the batter-runner never successfully attained first base or is the option negated because the batter-runner successfully attained second base (and the option is cancelled once she reaches first base)?

RULING: The runner is considered to have possession of the base once she passes it so the option for an illegal pitch is no longer given and the runner is declared out when the defense properly appeals she has missed first base.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 15, 2019, 06:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Please read the red portion of R2-S1-A10 above, it says "she is considered to have touched the base unless an appeal has been made". The successful Appeal means that B1 was put out before touching 1B. Therefore let us go to R6-S1-A1, PENALTY, EXCEPTION 1 which says: "If the batter reaches first base safely and each other runner advances at least one base, the illegal pitch is nullified. All action stands and the illegal pitch is canceled." B1 did not reach 1B safely because of the successful Appeal by the Defense, therefore, the Offense does have an option: i) Take the result of the Play or ii) Negate the out by B1 with B1's At Bat continuing with a Ball added to her Ball/Strike count.

MTD, Sr.
Someone posted the NFHS rule interpretations that were just put out, but I cant find them again to copy them over here for you. No, the coach does not get the option, as has been stated once the batter/runner passed first base they are assumed to have touched it. When the appeal is made, that is a totally separate violation they are appealing and the out would stand.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 15, 2019, 06:38pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,317
Found them.

March 12, 2019= update NFHS Softball Weekly Rule Interpretations
SITUATION 1: B3 bats and hits a double bringing B4 up to the plate with no outs. In (a) the defensive coach requests that B4 be intentionally walked. In (b) the pitcher requests that B4 be intentionally walked. RULING: In both (a) and (b), the proper mechanic for an umpire any time a defensive coach or player wishes to intentionally walk a player is once he/she ensures all playing action is completed, signal and call time. Once the ball is dead, allow the coach or player to make the request to intentionally walk B4. Note: It is good practice in (b) to delay slightly when a player requests an intentionally walk to ensure the defensive coach is in agreement prior to awarding the intentional walk. Once an intentional walk is awarded by the umpire it is final and cannot be reversed.
SITUATION 2: With no outs, a 1 ball 1 strike count and R1 on first base, the pitcher is called for an illegal pitch. B2 swings and misses the ball. R1 who was stealing on the pitch is thrown out at second base. The umpire rules that since R1 was stealing on the pitch she would remain out but awards the batter a ball for the illegal pitch. RULING: This is an incorrect ruling. Since the batter was not safe at first base and all runners did not advance at least one base on an illegal pitch, the offensive coach should receive his/her choice of the play or the penalty (6-1-1 PENALTY EXCEPTION 2). In this case the result of the play would be B2 at bat with a 1 ball 2 strike count and R1 remaining out. If the coach would like to take the penalty, a ball is awarded to B2 (2 ball 1 strike count) and R1 would be returned to first base.
SITUATION 3: With R1 on second base and no outs, F1 is called for an illegal pitch that B2 hits to the outfield. R1 scores on the play and B2 is safe on second base but misses first base on her way to second base. After the play is over the defensive coach appeals that B2 missed first base and the base umpire rules B2 out for missing first base. The offensive coach argues that they should be allowed to take the penalty for the illegal pitch since B2 was not safe at first base. RULING: NFHS rules state that once a runner has passed a base she is considered to have touched that base until properly appealed. Once B2 passed first base and R1 had advanced safely to third base the illegal pitch was cancelled (6-1-1 EXCEPTION 1). The intent of the illegal pitch penalty is to adequately offset the possible disadvantage she encountered due to the illegal pitch. It is not intended to allow the offense to subsequently break other rules, such as missing a base. Just as the NFHS obstruction rule is designed to protect the obstructed runner and award the bases she would have reached had there not been obstruction (remove the disadvantage of being obstructed) it too does not allow the runner to break other rules. There are exceptions listed in the obstruction rule that specifically state an obstructed runner would be called out if she missed a base or left before a fly ball was first touched (if properly appealed) and if she passed another runner, to name a few (Rule 8-4-3b PENALTY A, EXCEPTIONS).
SITUATION 4: With no outs, R1 on third base and R2 on first base, B3 is at bat with a 3 ball 1 strike count. The umpire calls an illegal pitch that B3 swings and misses. R2 was stealing second base on the pitch and is thrown out at second base but R1 is safe stealing home. The umpire rules that since R1 advanced safely the illegal pitch is nullified, R1 scores, R2 is out at second and B3 remains at bat with a 3 ball 2 strike count. RULING: This in an incorrect ruling. Since the batter was not safe at first base and all runners did not advance at least one base on an illegal pitch the offensive coach should receive their choice of the play or the penalty (6-1-1 PENALTY EXCEPTION 2). In this case the result of the play would be R1 scores, R2 is out and B3 remains at bat with a 3 ball 2 strike count with 1 out. If the coach would like to take the penalty, a ball is awarded to B3 which would result in ball 4, placing B3 on first base forcing R2 to advance to second base and R1 would return to third base.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 19, 2019, 09:46am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,078
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
Found them.

March 12, 2019= update NFHS Softball Weekly Rule Interpretations
SITUATION 1: B3 bats and hits a double bringing B4 up to the plate with no outs. In (a) the defensive coach requests that B4 be intentionally walked. In (b) the pitcher requests that B4 be intentionally walked. RULING: In both (a) and (b), the proper mechanic for an umpire any time a defensive coach or player wishes to intentionally walk a player is once he/she ensures all playing action is completed, signal and call time. Once the ball is dead, allow the coach or player to make the request to intentionally walk B4. Note: It is good practice in (b) to delay slightly when a player requests an intentionally walk to ensure the defensive coach is in agreement prior to awarding the intentional walk. Once an intentional walk is awarded by the umpire it is final and cannot be reversed.
SITUATION 2: With no outs, a 1 ball 1 strike count and R1 on first base, the pitcher is called for an illegal pitch. B2 swings and misses the ball. R1 who was stealing on the pitch is thrown out at second base. The umpire rules that since R1 was stealing on the pitch she would remain out but awards the batter a ball for the illegal pitch. RULING: This is an incorrect ruling. Since the batter was not safe at first base and all runners did not advance at least one base on an illegal pitch, the offensive coach should receive his/her choice of the play or the penalty (6-1-1 PENALTY EXCEPTION 2). In this case the result of the play would be B2 at bat with a 1 ball 2 strike count and R1 remaining out. If the coach would like to take the penalty, a ball is awarded to B2 (2 ball 1 strike count) and R1 would be returned to first base.
SITUATION 3: With R1 on second base and no outs, F1 is called for an illegal pitch that B2 hits to the outfield. R1 scores on the play and B2 is safe on second base but misses first base on her way to second base. After the play is over the defensive coach appeals that B2 missed first base and the base umpire rules B2 out for missing first base. The offensive coach argues that they should be allowed to take the penalty for the illegal pitch since B2 was not safe at first base. RULING: NFHS rules state that once a runner has passed a base she is considered to have touched that base until properly appealed. Once B2 passed first base and R1 had advanced safely to third base the illegal pitch was cancelled (6-1-1 EXCEPTION 1). The intent of the illegal pitch penalty is to adequately offset the possible disadvantage she encountered due to the illegal pitch. It is not intended to allow the offense to subsequently break other rules, such as missing a base. Just as the NFHS obstruction rule is designed to protect the obstructed runner and award the bases she would have reached had there not been obstruction (remove the disadvantage of being obstructed) it too does not allow the runner to break other rules. There are exceptions listed in the obstruction rule that specifically state an obstructed runner would be called out if she missed a base or left before a fly ball was first touched (if properly appealed) and if she passed another runner, to name a few (Rule 8-4-3b PENALTY A, EXCEPTIONS).
SITUATION 4: With no outs, R1 on third base and R2 on first base, B3 is at bat with a 3 ball 1 strike count. The umpire calls an illegal pitch that B3 swings and misses. R2 was stealing second base on the pitch and is thrown out at second base but R1 is safe stealing home. The umpire rules that since R1 advanced safely the illegal pitch is nullified, R1 scores, R2 is out at second and B3 remains at bat with a 3 ball 2 strike count. RULING: This in an incorrect ruling. Since the batter was not safe at first base and all runners did not advance at least one base on an illegal pitch the offensive coach should receive their choice of the play or the penalty (6-1-1 PENALTY EXCEPTION 2). In this case the result of the play would be R1 scores, R2 is out and B3 remains at bat with a 3 ball 2 strike count with 1 out. If the coach would like to take the penalty, a ball is awarded to B3 which would result in ball 4, placing B3 on first base forcing R2 to advance to second base and R1 would return to third base.
I think that settles it.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 19, 2019, 04:42pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Woodstock, GA; Atlanta area
Posts: 2,784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Aren't you forgetting:

NFHS R2-S1-A10 says: "Missing First Base Before the Throw Arrives. If a runner passes first base before the throw arrives, she is considered to have touched the base unless an appeal is made. If an appeal is made, it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live."

What does R2-S1-A10 tell us?

MTD, Sr.
This rule ONLY addresses the runner missing the base and returning to that base (which would remedy the miss) before an appeal is made.

In the topic play, the runner didn't remedy, she advanced to second.
__________________
Steve
ASA/ISF/NCAA/NFHS/PGF
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ASA Fast Pitch: Is this an Illegal Pitch? Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Softball 4 Thu Jul 24, 2014 01:11pm
Illegal pitch or no pitch. chapmaja Softball 25 Thu May 30, 2013 07:15am
When does an leegal pitch BECOME and illegal pitch. Illini_Ref Baseball 4 Fri Apr 23, 2004 02:06pm
Legal Pitch vs. Illegal Pitch ? Deion Softball 15 Mon Jun 30, 2003 04:24pm
illegal ball... illegal pitch? [email protected] Baseball 5 Thu Apr 17, 2003 06:57pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:42pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1