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-   -   Illegal Pitch Play. (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/104438-illegal-pitch-play.html)

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Mar 13, 2019 09:44pm

Illegal Pitch Play.
 
From the OhioHSAA Softball Bulletin 2019-1:

Play #5: B1 hits an Illegal Pitch for a Double. B1 misses 1B and is called out on Appeal. Since B1 did not reach 1B safely, is the Illegal Pitch nullified or is there an option?

What say you?

MTD, Sr.

teebob21 Wed Mar 13, 2019 09:59pm

deleted

ilyazhito Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:57pm

The illegal pitch penalty is enforced. Because the batter and all runners did not advance at least one base safely, the illegal pitch penalty takes precedence. The batter returns to the plate with 1 ball added to the count. If the illegal pitch results in Ball 4, the batter is awarded 1st base on the base on balls, and runners advance if forced.

RKBUmp Thu Mar 14, 2019 05:03am

B1 did reach first base safely but missed it. By rule she is assumed to have touched the base until properly appealed. The appeal stands and B1 is out.

Tru_in_Blu Thu Mar 14, 2019 08:00am

Good one. I initially thought no option would be given and the batter declared out.

Then I thought (always dangerous) what if we started with a runner on second and 2 outs? Otherwise the same. BR misses first base, defense appeals, BR is ruled out. Does the run score? 9-1-1-d? Now is there an option?

Big Slick Thu Mar 14, 2019 09:12am

There is no option on this play (IP is nullified), as the batter-runner achieved first base safely. She just choose not to touch it, which is a separate violation in which she would be out on an appeal. As someone stated, a player is assumed to have touched the base when they pass the base, ergo, she touched first base.

This is a common misconception. The crew missed this exact play in a DIII regional (more than 5 years ago --- purposely vague to not implicate the crew, and let's just say this particular play got a "pass" because of the S-storm that was apart of that particular regional).

For those who think that missing the base absolves her of "achieving a base safely" -- how can violating one rule benefit any player?

Big Slick Thu Mar 14, 2019 09:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu (Post 1031033)
Good one. I initially thought no option would be given and the batter declared out.

Then I thought (always dangerous) what if we started with a runner on second and 2 outs? Otherwise the same. BR misses first base, defense appeals, BR is ruled out. Does the run score? 9-1-1-d? Now is there an option?

No and No. No option because both the BR and runner advanced at least one base (nullifies the IP). Then BR called out for missing first base on appeal; no runs can score because of the third out on BR at first. Same ruling in USA/NFHS/NCAA.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:32am

For those who do not believe that the is "no" option for the Offense.
 
Aren't you forgetting:

NFHS R2-S1-A10 says: "Missing First Base Before the Throw Arrives. If a runner passes first base before the throw arrives, she is considered to have touched the base unless an appeal is made. If an appeal is made, it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live."

What does R2-S1-A10 tell us?

MTD, Sr.

Tru_in_Blu Thu Mar 14, 2019 01:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1031042)
Aren't you forgetting:

NFHS R2-S1-A10 says: "Missing First Base Before the Throw Arrives. If a runner passes first base before the throw arrives, she is considered to have touched the base unless an appeal is made. If an appeal is made, it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live."

What does R2-S1-A10 tell us?

MTD, Sr.

Not sure where you're going with this. The rule you cited tells us pretty much the story.
  • Live ball appeal?
  • A play was being made on the BR @ 1B?
  • BR stayed at or near 1B? i.e. not trying to stretch a hit
  • Base umpire should initially rule safe and then wait to see if the appeal is made?
  • Cannot call time out as the ball is still live? (Assuming no catastrophic injury.)
  • I give up. What DOES R2-S1-A10 tell us?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Thu Mar 14, 2019 06:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1031023)
From the OhioHSAA Softball Bulletin 2019-1:

Play #5: B1 hits an Illegal Pitch for a Double. B1 misses 1B and is called out on Appeal. Since B1 did not reach 1B safely, is the Illegal Pitch nullified or is there an option?

What say you?

MTD, Sr.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1031042)
Aren't you forgetting:

NFHS R2-S1-A10 says: "Missing First Base Before the Throw Arrives. If a runner passes first base before the throw arrives, she is considered to have touched the base unless an appeal is made. If an appeal is made, it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live."

What does R2-S1-A10 tell us?

MTD, Sr.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu (Post 1031044)
Not sure where you're going with this. The rule you cited tells us pretty much the story.
  • Live ball appeal?
  • A play was being made on the BR @ 1B?
  • BR stayed at or near 1B? i.e. not trying to stretch a hit
  • Base umpire should initially rule safe and then wait to see if the appeal is made?
  • Cannot call time out as the ball is still live? (Assuming no catastrophic injury.)
  • I give up. What DOES R2-S1-A10 tell us?


Please read the red portion of R2-S1-A10 above, it says "she is considered to have touched the base unless an appeal has been made". The successful Appeal means that B1 was put out before touching 1B. Therefore let us go to R6-S1-A1, PENALTY, EXCEPTION 1 which says: "If the batter reaches first base safely and each other runner advances at least one base, the illegal pitch is nullified. All action stands and the illegal pitch is canceled." B1 did not reach 1B safely because of the successful Appeal by the Defense, therefore, the Offense does have an option: i) Take the result of the Play or ii) Negate the out by B1 with B1's At Bat continuing with a Ball added to her Ball/Strike count.

MTD, Sr.

Big Slick Fri Mar 15, 2019 07:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1031046)
Please read the red portion of R2-S1-A10 above, it says "she is considered to have touched the base unless an appeal has been made". The successful Appeal means that B1 was put out before touching 1B. Therefore let us go to R6-S1-A1, PENALTY, EXCEPTION 1 which says: "If the batter reaches first base safely and each other runner advances at least one base, the illegal pitch is nullified. All action stands and the illegal pitch is canceled." B1 did not reach 1B safely because of the successful Appeal by the Defense, therefore, the Offense does have an option: i) Take the result of the Play or ii) Negate the out by B1 with B1's At Bat continuing with a Ball added to her Ball/Strike count.

MTD, Sr.

Very much incorrect. She reached first base safely, but ruled out because she violated another rule. How can team benefit from breaking a rule?

Here is the NCAA AR (and this would the same in USA and NFHS):
Quote:

A.R. 10-8. With two outs and no one on base, the pitcher throws an illegal pitch. The batter hits to the outfield and successfully gains second base. However, the batter-runner missed first base and the defense makes a live ball appeal to get the third out. Does the offense have an option to take the result of the play or return the batter to the batter’s box from the illegal pitch because the batter-runner never successfully attained first base or is the option negated because the batter-runner successfully attained second base (and the option is cancelled once she reaches first base)?

RULING: The runner is considered to have possession of the base once she passes it so the option for an illegal pitch is no longer given and the runner is declared out when the defense properly appeals she has missed first base.

RKBUmp Fri Mar 15, 2019 06:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1031046)
Please read the red portion of R2-S1-A10 above, it says "she is considered to have touched the base unless an appeal has been made". The successful Appeal means that B1 was put out before touching 1B. Therefore let us go to R6-S1-A1, PENALTY, EXCEPTION 1 which says: "If the batter reaches first base safely and each other runner advances at least one base, the illegal pitch is nullified. All action stands and the illegal pitch is canceled." B1 did not reach 1B safely because of the successful Appeal by the Defense, therefore, the Offense does have an option: i) Take the result of the Play or ii) Negate the out by B1 with B1's At Bat continuing with a Ball added to her Ball/Strike count.

MTD, Sr.

Someone posted the NFHS rule interpretations that were just put out, but I cant find them again to copy them over here for you. No, the coach does not get the option, as has been stated once the batter/runner passed first base they are assumed to have touched it. When the appeal is made, that is a totally separate violation they are appealing and the out would stand.

RKBUmp Fri Mar 15, 2019 06:38pm

Found them.

March 12, 2019= update NFHS Softball Weekly Rule Interpretations
SITUATION 1: B3 bats and hits a double bringing B4 up to the plate with no outs. In (a) the defensive coach requests that B4 be intentionally walked. In (b) the pitcher requests that B4 be intentionally walked. RULING: In both (a) and (b), the proper mechanic for an umpire any time a defensive coach or player wishes to intentionally walk a player is once he/she ensures all playing action is completed, signal and call time. Once the ball is dead, allow the coach or player to make the request to intentionally walk B4. Note: It is good practice in (b) to delay slightly when a player requests an intentionally walk to ensure the defensive coach is in agreement prior to awarding the intentional walk. Once an intentional walk is awarded by the umpire it is final and cannot be reversed.
SITUATION 2: With no outs, a 1 ball 1 strike count and R1 on first base, the pitcher is called for an illegal pitch. B2 swings and misses the ball. R1 who was stealing on the pitch is thrown out at second base. The umpire rules that since R1 was stealing on the pitch she would remain out but awards the batter a ball for the illegal pitch. RULING: This is an incorrect ruling. Since the batter was not safe at first base and all runners did not advance at least one base on an illegal pitch, the offensive coach should receive his/her choice of the play or the penalty (6-1-1 PENALTY EXCEPTION 2). In this case the result of the play would be B2 at bat with a 1 ball 2 strike count and R1 remaining out. If the coach would like to take the penalty, a ball is awarded to B2 (2 ball 1 strike count) and R1 would be returned to first base.
SITUATION 3: With R1 on second base and no outs, F1 is called for an illegal pitch that B2 hits to the outfield. R1 scores on the play and B2 is safe on second base but misses first base on her way to second base. After the play is over the defensive coach appeals that B2 missed first base and the base umpire rules B2 out for missing first base. The offensive coach argues that they should be allowed to take the penalty for the illegal pitch since B2 was not safe at first base. RULING: NFHS rules state that once a runner has passed a base she is considered to have touched that base until properly appealed. Once B2 passed first base and R1 had advanced safely to third base the illegal pitch was cancelled (6-1-1 EXCEPTION 1). The intent of the illegal pitch penalty is to adequately offset the possible disadvantage she encountered due to the illegal pitch. It is not intended to allow the offense to subsequently break other rules, such as missing a base. Just as the NFHS obstruction rule is designed to protect the obstructed runner and award the bases she would have reached had there not been obstruction (remove the disadvantage of being obstructed) it too does not allow the runner to break other rules. There are exceptions listed in the obstruction rule that specifically state an obstructed runner would be called out if she missed a base or left before a fly ball was first touched (if properly appealed) and if she passed another runner, to name a few (Rule 8-4-3b PENALTY A, EXCEPTIONS).
SITUATION 4: With no outs, R1 on third base and R2 on first base, B3 is at bat with a 3 ball 1 strike count. The umpire calls an illegal pitch that B3 swings and misses. R2 was stealing second base on the pitch and is thrown out at second base but R1 is safe stealing home. The umpire rules that since R1 advanced safely the illegal pitch is nullified, R1 scores, R2 is out at second and B3 remains at bat with a 3 ball 2 strike count. RULING: This in an incorrect ruling. Since the batter was not safe at first base and all runners did not advance at least one base on an illegal pitch the offensive coach should receive their choice of the play or the penalty (6-1-1 PENALTY EXCEPTION 2). In this case the result of the play would be R1 scores, R2 is out and B3 remains at bat with a 3 ball 2 strike count with 1 out. If the coach would like to take the penalty, a ball is awarded to B3 which would result in ball 4, placing B3 on first base forcing R2 to advance to second base and R1 would return to third base.

chapmaja Tue Mar 19, 2019 09:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RKBUmp (Post 1031072)
Found them.

March 12, 2019= update NFHS Softball Weekly Rule Interpretations
SITUATION 1: B3 bats and hits a double bringing B4 up to the plate with no outs. In (a) the defensive coach requests that B4 be intentionally walked. In (b) the pitcher requests that B4 be intentionally walked. RULING: In both (a) and (b), the proper mechanic for an umpire any time a defensive coach or player wishes to intentionally walk a player is once he/she ensures all playing action is completed, signal and call time. Once the ball is dead, allow the coach or player to make the request to intentionally walk B4. Note: It is good practice in (b) to delay slightly when a player requests an intentionally walk to ensure the defensive coach is in agreement prior to awarding the intentional walk. Once an intentional walk is awarded by the umpire it is final and cannot be reversed.
SITUATION 2: With no outs, a 1 ball 1 strike count and R1 on first base, the pitcher is called for an illegal pitch. B2 swings and misses the ball. R1 who was stealing on the pitch is thrown out at second base. The umpire rules that since R1 was stealing on the pitch she would remain out but awards the batter a ball for the illegal pitch. RULING: This is an incorrect ruling. Since the batter was not safe at first base and all runners did not advance at least one base on an illegal pitch, the offensive coach should receive his/her choice of the play or the penalty (6-1-1 PENALTY EXCEPTION 2). In this case the result of the play would be B2 at bat with a 1 ball 2 strike count and R1 remaining out. If the coach would like to take the penalty, a ball is awarded to B2 (2 ball 1 strike count) and R1 would be returned to first base.
SITUATION 3: With R1 on second base and no outs, F1 is called for an illegal pitch that B2 hits to the outfield. R1 scores on the play and B2 is safe on second base but misses first base on her way to second base. After the play is over the defensive coach appeals that B2 missed first base and the base umpire rules B2 out for missing first base. The offensive coach argues that they should be allowed to take the penalty for the illegal pitch since B2 was not safe at first base. RULING: NFHS rules state that once a runner has passed a base she is considered to have touched that base until properly appealed. Once B2 passed first base and R1 had advanced safely to third base the illegal pitch was cancelled (6-1-1 EXCEPTION 1). The intent of the illegal pitch penalty is to adequately offset the possible disadvantage she encountered due to the illegal pitch. It is not intended to allow the offense to subsequently break other rules, such as missing a base. Just as the NFHS obstruction rule is designed to protect the obstructed runner and award the bases she would have reached had there not been obstruction (remove the disadvantage of being obstructed) it too does not allow the runner to break other rules. There are exceptions listed in the obstruction rule that specifically state an obstructed runner would be called out if she missed a base or left before a fly ball was first touched (if properly appealed) and if she passed another runner, to name a few (Rule 8-4-3b PENALTY A, EXCEPTIONS).
SITUATION 4: With no outs, R1 on third base and R2 on first base, B3 is at bat with a 3 ball 1 strike count. The umpire calls an illegal pitch that B3 swings and misses. R2 was stealing second base on the pitch and is thrown out at second base but R1 is safe stealing home. The umpire rules that since R1 advanced safely the illegal pitch is nullified, R1 scores, R2 is out at second and B3 remains at bat with a 3 ball 2 strike count. RULING: This in an incorrect ruling. Since the batter was not safe at first base and all runners did not advance at least one base on an illegal pitch the offensive coach should receive their choice of the play or the penalty (6-1-1 PENALTY EXCEPTION 2). In this case the result of the play would be R1 scores, R2 is out and B3 remains at bat with a 3 ball 2 strike count with 1 out. If the coach would like to take the penalty, a ball is awarded to B3 which would result in ball 4, placing B3 on first base forcing R2 to advance to second base and R1 would return to third base.

I think that settles it.

AtlUmpSteve Tue Mar 19, 2019 04:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1031042)
Aren't you forgetting:

NFHS R2-S1-A10 says: "Missing First Base Before the Throw Arrives. If a runner passes first base before the throw arrives, she is considered to have touched the base unless an appeal is made. If an appeal is made, it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live."

What does R2-S1-A10 tell us?

MTD, Sr.

This rule ONLY addresses the runner missing the base and returning to that base (which would remedy the miss) before an appeal is made.

In the topic play, the runner didn't remedy, she advanced to second.


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