When do you finally eject "that coach" who knows how to toe the line?

[jmkupka]

I think an "Out! No, Safe!" when the ball is mishandled is much, much worse.

But I understand your point Manny. I'm thinking in terms of a similar situation where F4 fields a grounder (or an offline throw from F2), then reaches for a sweep tag on the runner coming into 2B.

Doesn't it look better to acknowledge the missed tag, and then if there is an overslide (or miss) of the base, sell the subsequent tagout?

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

I think an "Out! No, Safe!" when the ball is mishandled is much, much worse.

But I understand your point Manny. I'm thinking in terms of a similar situation where F4 fields a grounder (or an offline throw from F2), then reaches for a sweep tag on the runner coming into 2B.

Doesn't it look better to acknowledge the missed tag, and then if there is an overslide (or miss) of the base, sell the subsequent tagout?

No, it doesn't.

The runner is still in jeopardy of being retired when off the base. Additionally, signaling the no tag is taking your focus from the rest of the play. Watch the play until the conclusion and make the call.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

I think an "Out! No, Safe!" when the ball is mishandled is much, much worse.

But I understand your point Manny. I'm thinking in terms of a similar situation where F4 fields a grounder (or an offline throw from F2), then reaches for a sweep tag on the runner coming into 2B.

Doesn't it look better to acknowledge the missed tag, and then if there is an overslide (or miss) of the base, sell the subsequent tagout?

IMHO, no. If things happen so quickly in between, you're going to be waving and punching your arms almost simultaneously, and might fall down in the process!

I actually had something very similar happen to me in a HS game last week. I'm the BU (two man), and there was a ground ball to F6. Her throw to first was a little off-line. F3 tried to stretch and stay on the bag, so my focus was down on her foot. I saw her lose contact with the bag when she caught the ball, and I started to give my Off the Bag signal. But she had the presence of mind to tag the BR just before the BR touched, and I almost missed it because I was too intent on seeing F3's foot. So I did an "Off the Bag, Point, Call 'Tag', then Punch" mechanic that you won't find in any Umpire Manual. It was awful.

[jmkupka]

Not to get the last word (respect all of your opinions too much for that), but do you not agree that there is a point before the bag, where the missed tag should be acknowledged?

I think up to now you've been thinking in terms of a quality throw from F2, but a no-tag at the base. In that case, our normal hesitation, until the dust settles, is what avoids the feeling of a double-call.

But an off-line throw from F2, or a grounder, whatever, that causes a missed sweep tag before the bag, I feel calls for a firm "No Tag", and a safe signal.

We're usually the only ones who see that little bit of daylight between glove and runner. If we wait till the subsequent tag on an overslide, ESPECIALLY if the runner gets back in time, DC's gonna want to know why the out wasn't called on the first tag.

I think "no tag" then looks even worse...

[CecilOne]

I don't think any verbal besides "out" and "safe" are needed; of course with proper timing.
Calling it wrong then correct might need an explanatory word(s).

I don't think we should consider what the coach or player wants or whether we will end up explaining a call afterward.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I actually had something very similar happen to me in a HS game last week. I'm the BU (two man), and there was a ground ball to F6. Her throw to first was a little off-line. F3 tried to stretch and stay on the bag, so my focus was down on her foot. I saw her lose contact with the bag when she caught the ball, and I started to give my Off the Bag signal.

You have an "off the bag" signal?

But she had the presence of mind to tag the BR just before the BR touched, and I almost missed it because I was too intent on seeing F3's foot. So I did an "Off the Bag, Point, Call 'Tag', then Punch" mechanic that you won't find in any Umpire Manual. It was awful.

How about, "On the tag, out" with a nice sell out and a point if you believe it is necessary?

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You have an "off the bag" signal?




How about, "On the tag, out" with a nice sell out and a point if you believe it is necessary?

"Off the bag" is a very good mechanic, actually. It is one of the additional signals taught in pro baseball umpire school to help sell a close call. The "off the bag" signal is most often used on a close play where the runner is safe and F3 pulled his (her) foot off the bag to receive the throw. However, in this type of a situation, it would make sense to signal off the bag, and then give the "banger" out signal while indicating the tag.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

"Off the bag" is a very good mechanic, actually. It is one of the additional signals taught in pro baseball umpire school to help sell a close call. The "off the bag" signal is most often used on a close play where the runner is safe and F3 pulled his (her) foot off the bag to receive the throw. However, in this type of a situation, it would make sense to signal off the bag, and then give the "banger" out signal while indicating the tag.

IMO, a simple point and verbal will suffice. To me, an additional signal is a waste of time and energy.

[ASA/NYSSOBLUE]

Last JV of last season - had the bases, and the first batter put a pretty good bunt down, and 1B, who was a great pitcher learning the 1B position , goes to get the throw from F2, and immediately starts feeling for the bag , while looking for the throw. I got into a good 90 degree position to make the call, and F3 is STILL feeling for the bag, and gets the ball, bur BR is safe. Instead of the 'off base' signal, i point in the general area of the bag, and say, "FootneverhadthebagSAFE!" and give a nice big safe signal.

When driving home later on (actually going to my USA game), I reasoned to myself, that since F3 was tapping with her foot all over, my call was a much better description of what had happened, and the point emphasized I was looking right at it. I never have been a big fan of the simple 'off the base' signal, anyways - the point at the area of the bag where whatever happened has always seemed more effective to me....but YMMV...

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You have an "off the bag" signal?


How about, "On the tag, out" with a nice sell out and a point if you believe it is necessary?

I think he was saying he messed up; and trying to use too many signals made it worse.

I'll stick with what I said above, but maybe add the off-bag gesture:
I don't think any verbal besides "out" and "safe" are needed; of course with proper timing.
Calling it wrong then correct might need an explanatory word(s).

And I can't imagine ever saying ""FootneverhadthebagSAFE!" "

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I think he was saying he messed up; and trying to use too many signals made it worse.

I'll stick with what I said above, but maybe add the off-bag gesture:
I don't think any verbal besides "out" and "safe" are needed; of course with proper timing.
Calling it wrong then correct might need an explanatory word(s).

And I can't imagine ever saying ""FootneverhadthebagSAFE!" "

Rightly or wrongly, I use the following for pulled feet/missed bags after waiting for the entire play to complete:

"No!" + Point
"Off the bag!" + two-arm sweep signal away from the base (not an approved USA mechanic; optional NCAA mechanic)
"Safe!" + Strong, but not sell, safe. All done with measured timing. Not quick, but not slow either. No need for an ump show on a pulled foot.

When they get back to the bag on a close one, it's the opposite. "Yes, on the bag" + point followed by sell out. Never had a problem from observers, and usually coaches don't bother questioning it.

[CecilOne]

I guess we have reached potato, potaato, , tomato, tomaato.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by teebob21

"Off the bag!" + two-arm sweep signal away from the base (not an approved USA mechanic; optional NCAA mechanic).

I will NEVER do the "hula swoosh".

I learned that at the first National School I attended in 2008 (?).

One of our instructors was Norm Davis, then the State UIC for Maine and the Region 1 UIC. Norm passed in 2013. He was actually in a wheelchair doing our school.

Anyhoos, someone did the "hula swoosh" while making a call at first base. And boy, did we hear it from Norm! We had to go through the whole line again giving the (then ASA) correct mechanic. Point, "off the base!", safe.

He was a wealth of knowledge...

[teebob21]

Maybe I've never been called out on it because I don't do a full Hula Swoosh. My signal is a "push" away from the base, not a giant sweep. (People who have worked with me can let me know if this signal is bigger than I think it is....Andy, I'm looking at you.) Imagine an NFL official signalling no-catch out of bounds on a semi-obvious play...and come to think of it, I've never had this play happen while in front of higher-level USA evaluators.

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I will NEVER do the "hula swoosh".

I learned that at the first National School I attended in 2008 (?).

One of our instructors was Norm Davis, then the State UIC for Maine and the Region 1 UIC. Norm passed in 2013. He was actually in a wheelchair doing our school.

Anyhoos, someone did the "hula swoosh" while making a call at first base. And boy, did we hear it from Norm! We had to go through the whole line again giving the (then ASA) correct mechanic. Point, "off the base!", safe.

He was a wealth of knowledge...

Another case of one UIC wanting one thing and a different wanting something else. Last national school I went to we were told to give a swoosh signal or whatever you want to call it if the defebder was off the bag. The only difference was, our state staff had initially told us to give the off the bag signal first and then give the safe signal, otherwise they felt it looked like making an excuse for the safe call. National staff told us they wanted the safe signal first and then the off the bag signal and announcement.