Umpire: "No More." Coach: "OK.....chirp chirp" - Toss or ignore?

[teebob21]

Had a situation this weekend that is still bugging me. I don't think I handled it as well as I could have. Looking for advice...Juco vs good club team fall ball. Club team at bat. Batter puts her leg into an inside pitch and gets hit. I call the dead ball, and announce that the batter is staying here: it's a ball.

Club coach comes out, and does quite a song and dance about how the batter can do whatever she wants in the box (wrong). After I explain the college rule, he even demonstrates for everyone how "that's how they teach 'em to hit" (no, batters do not point their knee towards the catcher to swing). If it had been a Juco coach during the season, I probably would have and should have tossed him right there. My mistake, #1, I suppose.

I repeat to him that a batter cannot obviously attempt or allow themselves to be HBP. Walking away, he says something like I'm missing a page from my rulebook, and on top of it all, he finishes the sentence with "kid", which perks my ears back up. For those that don't know me, I am 32 with a bad case of permanent babyface. That said, you can see how long I have been on the field in my forum sig, and it has been a LONG time since anyone called me "kid". I ignore it; my mistake #2, in hindsight.

I've told him "Enough." I've walked in the other direction. I'm feeling like the moment has passed and the situation has been de-escalated. I've got my mask back on when he starts in again from the coach's box. I called time, pulled the mask off and said something like "Coach, I don't want to toss you from a scrimmage. Drop it: no more. Just drop it."

Coach says "OK, OK......drop it just like that call you made." ... or something like that loud enough for everyone to hear.

GROAN: What now? He's 50+ feet away. I feel like conflict management is the worst part of my game right now, and my recent posts probably prove that. Usually I talk too much and give way too much rope, but at the same time I don't want to be too quick on the trigger. That said, I said "no more" (which I know is a bad position to put myself in), and there was more.

Toss him now, or go back to ignoring him and move on? I know he should already be gone, but at this point, I've already missed the moment. Is the extra snide comment enough for the heave-ho?

[udbrky]

That's a paddlin.

What's softball's standard of practice? Look at post 6 here for baseball:

2017 Rule Changes/POE's Announced - Collegiate - Umpire-Empire

Once you make it clear that the line has been drawn, you have to stand to that and run them. Otherwise, you're just going to keep saying "knock it off" until one of you tires of the charade.

[robbie]

Obviously wrong, but one of our Umps once had this exchange:

Ump: "One more word and your gone"
Coach: "Word"
Ump: "Your gone"

[Rich]

Originally Posted by robbie

Obviously wrong, but one of our Umps once had this exchange:



Ump: "One more word and your gone"

Coach: "Word"

Ump: "Your gone"

Not right by the umpire, but the coach had it coming.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Well, I'd be happy to have someone call me "kid" nowadays.

I don't issue hard ultimatums to coaches. Things like "not another word" or "no more" can sometimes come across as a challenge to some belligerent species and they'll jump on it just thinking they're going to get the last word. (They aren't, of course, as we never lose that battle.)

Appealing to the coach that it was a scrimmage game, after all, is a good strategy. If he's that animated in a practice game, I can't imagine what he'd be like in a game that mattered.

As a precursor to ejection of a coach as a result of a debate, I'll often asked them: "Coach, is there anywhere else you'd rather be right now than coaching your team?" This usually takes a few seconds to sink in, which helps to defuse some of the emotion. The answer has always been "No." so far, at which point I'll say, "Good. Let's play ball." I've had good success with that tactic.

If conflict management or game management is what you consider to be your weakest point, you obviously have a focus to get better in that area. That's not to say go looking for opportunities to create conflict , but being more prepared in how to address issues as they come up. Clearly, getting inputs from this forum will provide you with several game management techniques.

Good luck.

[Andy]

First of all...I know exactly what I'm going to call you next time we work together......

My tactic has always been...."Coach. you've had your say, that's enough"
That seems to reinforce that I have heard him, but I don't want to hear any more.

Something like the "OK, OK" I would let go, but the parting shot on the call loud enough for others to hear has to be addressed...dump him....

[Tru_in_Blu]

I just remembered a situation with a fellow umpire in a game we were working. It was men's wreck league ball several years ago. I don't even remember the details of the argument and I don't believe I was asked to consult on the call (I was doing the bases).

In any case, the comment in the OP about "ears perked up" (rabbit or otherwise ) applies here. As the combatant was walking back to his dugout, he made some comment over his shoulder and at the end of it added "you pie face". No f-bombs or other obscenities were uttered. But my partner heard this and then literally chased the guy down where more arguing occurred and an ejection finally resulted.

I was watching all this from the middle infield being quite amused and tried hard to not laugh out loud. A couple of half innings later I approached my partner and asked what it was that set him off. He immediately started to get all red-faced again and said it was the "pie face" comment.

I used to watch the Boston Bruins in the late 60s and early 70s and they had a player John "Pie" McKenzie. That's the only reference I've ever heard to being a "pie face".

To this day, I'm not sure what the big deal was with that comment, but it certainly hit a major button for that umpire.

After that game, we took to calling him "Rambo".

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Had a situation this weekend that is still bugging me. I don't think I handled it as well as I could have. Looking for advice...Juco vs good club team fall ball. Club team at bat. Batter puts her leg into an inside pitch and gets hit. I call the dead ball, and announce that the batter is staying here: it's a ball.

Club coach comes out, and does quite a song and dance about how the batter can do whatever she wants in the box (wrong). After I explain the college rule, he even demonstrates for everyone how "that's how they teach 'em to hit" (no, batters do not point their knee towards the catcher to swing). If it had been a Juco coach during the season, I probably would have and should have tossed him right there. My mistake, #1, I suppose.

I repeat to him that a batter cannot obviously attempt or allow themselves to be HBP. Walking away, he says something like I'm missing a page from my rulebook, and on top of it all, he finishes the sentence with "kid", which perks my ears back up. For those that don't know me, I am 32 with a bad case of permanent babyface. That said, you can see how long I have been on the field in my forum sig, and it has been a LONG time since anyone called me "kid". I ignore it; my mistake #2, in hindsight.

I've told him "Enough." I've walked in the other direction. I'm feeling like the moment has passed and the situation has been de-escalated. I've got my mask back on when he starts in again from the coach's box.
.....

END of story !

Maybe after "kid" depending on tone & volume.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

First of all...I know exactly what I'm going to call you next time we work together......

My tactic has always been...."Coach. you've had your say, that's enough"
That seems to reinforce that I have heard him, but I don't want to hear any more.

Something like the "OK, OK" I would let go, but the parting shot on the call loud enough for others to hear has to be addressed...dump him....

I'm pretty close to this ^^^

Once I've said "enough", the most they get after that is a stop sign, if appropriate and minimal. Continuing past there means one or more of:

a) Coach wants to get ejected,
b) Coach expects to get ejected,
c) Coach disrespects you,
d) Coach believes you won't pull the trigger, and/or
e) Coach is unable to stop, and doesn't belong there anymore.

As opposed to the baseball reference above, I don't see this as a situation which requires an "official warning"; I think that is an overused crutch. When challenging judgment or balls and strikes, the manual and rules have you use an official warning; unsporting acts, disrespect, and general behavior issues that cross well over the line shouldn't fall into the "official warning".

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Had a situation this weekend that is still bugging me. I don't think I handled it as well as I could have. Looking for advice...Juco vs good club team fall ball. Club team at bat. Batter puts her leg into an inside pitch and gets hit. I call the dead ball, and announce that the batter is staying here: it's a ball.

Your judgment, nice call

Club coach comes out, and does quite a song and dance about how the batter can do whatever she wants in the box (wrong). After I explain the college rule, he even demonstrates for everyone how "that's how they teach 'em to hit" (no, batters do not point their knee towards the catcher to swing). If it had been a Juco coach during the season, I probably would have and should have tossed him right there. My mistake, #1, I suppose.

Even it if were, poor coaching does not exempt players from the proper application of the rules

I repeat to him that a batter cannot obviously attempt or allow themselves to be HBP. Walking away, he says something like I'm missing a page from my rulebook, and on top of it all, he finishes the sentence with "kid", which perks my ears back up. For those that don't know me, I am 32 with a bad case of permanent babyface. That said, you can see how long I have been on the field in my forum sig, and it has been a LONG time since anyone called me "kid". I ignore it; my mistake #2, in hindsight.

Well, I would call you a kid, too, but that doesn't mean I allow the coach to be an *******. OTOH, I might have asked the coach if he would care to protest the ruling. For all those thinking "no way", this is not something I've done as a smart ass, but when a coach is adamant I have no problem with a protest.

I've told him "Enough." I've walked in the other direction. I'm feeling like the moment has passed and the situation has been de-escalated. I've got my mask back on when he starts in again from the coach's box. I called time, pulled the mask off and said something like "Coach, I don't want to toss you from a scrimmage. Drop it: no more. Just drop it."

NEVER issue an ultimatum, it can easily backfire on you. But if you felt it necessary to stop the game, you probably should have dumped the coach then and moved on.

Coach says "OK, OK......drop it just like that call you made." ... or something like that loud enough for everyone to hear.

Yep, trying to be the nice guy and letting things go will come back to bite you in the ass.

GROAN: What now? He's 50+ feet away. I feel like conflict management is the worst part of my game right now, and my recent posts probably prove that. Usually I talk too much and give way too much rope, but at the same time I don't want to be too quick on the trigger. That said, I said "no more" (which I know is a bad position to put myself in), and there was more.

Toss him now, or go back to ignoring him and move on? I know he should already be gone, but at this point, I've already missed the moment. Is the extra snide comment enough for the heave-ho?

If you haven't tossed the coach by now, you may have already lost control of the game. Anything after you told him to drop it was enough.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

When challenging judgment or balls and strikes, the manual and rules have you use an official warning; unsporting acts, disrespect, and general behavior issues that cross well over the line shouldn't fall into the "official warning".

Other then where the rule book notes that a warning shall be issued, just what is an "official warning"? If there IS an official warning, is there an unofficial warning available? Is it like the difference between probation and double-secret probation?

[Tru_in_Blu]

I work NFHS softball, but not baseball. I logged in one day to take the on line test for softball but it wasn't available yet. The baseball test was available, so on a lark, I decided to take it.

There were several questions relating to "written warnings". I'd never heard of those, but there were about 4-6 questions about them so I figured maybe they were a real thing. I asked one of our softball guys who also does baseball, and sure enough "written warnings" are real. Apparently the umpire must note them on the back of the line up card. I don't know the impact or penalties associated if a coach gets a written warning.

BTW, I flunked the baseball test. Don't know enough about written warnings and pitcher's positioning.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Other then where the rule book notes that a warning shall be issued, just what is an "official warning"? If there IS an official warning, is there an unofficial warning available? Is it like the difference between probation and double-secret probation?

Pretty sure the question is facetious, but for those wondering about this, some rules sets prescribe warnings that are to be recorded. NFHS has a slew of warnings with restrictions for a second offense; many umpires might just tell a player to remove a wristband or a forgotten earring without a recorded warning; to me, I consider that an unofficial warning, and if she comes back with something else she shouldn't have or didn't remove it, I make it an official warning.

NCAA directs a warning to be recorded when a coach challenges balls and strikes or a strictly judgment ruling with a resultant delay in the game by being argumentative. A repeat offense results in ejection and a required game report to the NCAA Rules Secretary. I would consider a difference between "Coach, that's enough" and "Coach, that's your warning" with a recording of same to be an unofficial warning for the former case and allowing a bit of latitude going forward, and an official warning with minimal latitude remaining for the latter.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I work NFHS softball, but not baseball. I logged in one day to take the on line test for softball but it wasn't available yet. The baseball test was available, so on a lark, I decided to take it.

There were several questions relating to "written warnings". I'd never heard of those, but there were about 4-6 questions about them so I figured maybe they were a real thing. I asked one of our softball guys who also does baseball, and sure enough "written warnings" are real. Apparently the umpire must note them on the back of the line up card. I don't know the impact or penalties associated if a coach gets a written warning.

BTW, I flunked the baseball test. Don't know enough about written warnings and pitcher's positioning.

The "written warning" in NFHS Baseball, which was adopted last year, is a three step process. Step #1: When a head coach's conduct deteriorates to the point that a warning must be issued, that is the point at which the umpire makes a written note on the lineup card. Step #2: Any further minor misconduct results in the head coach being restricted to the bench for the remainder of the game. Step #3: Any further misconduct after being restricted to the bench by the head coach result's in his ejection. This does not preclude an umpire from ejecting the head coach before Step #1 if his conduct warrants an immediate ejection.

Coaches thought the written warning was like a traffic ticket and that they were to receive a copy of the warning. They also thought that all ejections had to follow the three step process. I know this from personal experience. I ejected a head coach for vehemently arguing against a foul ball call I had made and he went straight to ejection mode; he argued that I had not given him a written warning, LOL!

MTD, Sr.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I know this from personal experience. I ejected a head coach for vehemently arguing against a foul ball call I had made and he went straight to ejection mode; he argued that I had not given him a written warning, LOL!

MTD, Sr.

Gotta love it when the only arguments against an ejection are, "you didn't give him/her a warning" and "S/he didn't use any curse words".