When do you finally eject "that coach" who knows how to toe the line?

[teebob21]

Apologies in advance for the long post, but this is a game management situation. Sometimes context is not succinct. Imagine, if you will, a game where you have one of "those" coaches. A coach who almost knows the rules, almost knows umpire mechanics, and most importantly, constantly almost crosses the line. I recently had one of those games. (NFHS, for reference)

I like to think I have decent game management. Not great, I will admit, but decent. When is "enough" enough and you send him off? My sitch: HS game, with "that coach". I am BU, 2-man. Coach's team in 3B dugout. No comments were directed at me that I could hear from the dugout; all encounters were face to face.

1st encounter: Coach on offense, R1 on 1B, BR bunts. The throw from F5 to 1B takes F3 across the double bag where she drags a toe across both sides of the double bag for the out. From about 20 feet on a 45 angle with the bag, I point, say "Yes, she got it!" and sell the out signal. R1 advances to 2B. As I jog to C, Coach jogs to meet me. We have the usual back and forth where he wants me to go for help, and I ask him what question he has about the play. What does he think I missed? I tell him I won't ask for help on the touch at 1B as I'm 100% sure on it. He says I was totally out of position (wrong, but irrelevant) and the stereotypical "that's terrible" grumble-grumble. He keeps chirping as he leaves and I tell him that's enough to his back as he walks away, and give a stop sign. Life moves on.

2nd encounter: Steal at 2B, R1 only. Coach on defense. The ball arrives in plenty of time and F6 tags nothing but air. R1 slides past 2B...I have no tag and an overslide, so I delay my call. F6 does not re-apply the tag, so when R1 touches the base I give a routine safe call. Coach jogs out again and asks what I saw. I tell him "No tag." Coach says "And what was your positioning?" I tell him we are not having that debate today. For what it's worth, I had a near-perfect 90 at a distance of 8-10 feet from 2B, and closed to 6 feet on the missed tag/overslide. He walks off, repeating the stereotypical "that's terrible" grumble-grumble. I can live with this. Life goes on, again.

3rd encounter: Coach on defense again; R2 on 2B. Ball is hit to RF/CF gap, and I read the speedy BR as probably going to try for a triple, so I say outside on the SS side. (Whether or not this is lazy 2-man mechanics is another conversation, and not relevant to the play. Yes, I should have busted in, but it would not change the play.) BR goes to 3B as expected, and is there in plenty of time before the throw. I get an easy 90 on the 3B foul line. The ball comes in late, F5 straddling 3B, and tags the BR as she finishes her pop-up slide. This play is 100% routine, and I give no signal since Blind Grandma in the stands could have made that call. UH-OH: here comes Coach jogging out again.

(For purposes of future discussion) Moment #1: I put up the stop sign as he comes out of the dugout and tell him "There wasn't a play - we have nothing to talk about." I'm right by his dugout. He keeps coming.

Moment #2: I say again + stop sign: "Coach, no need to come out on this. I'm not going for help here." He keeps coming. SUPER LATE EDIT: I seriously considered dumping him right here.

Moment #3: He arrives. He says "You aren't going for help on that play? You were right on the line. You can't see the ball from there." I say "Nope." He replies, "I work with USA Softball and I don't know what's wrong with some of you umpires, never going for help." He never questioned the call, or lack of signal. He came out to argue a non-call, of all things. I say nothing. He glares at me and goes back to his bucket.

And finally we arrive at the postgame question: At any moment in this game, should I have ejected? He toed the line quite well, and got under my skin enough for me to post this. Did he walk the fine line well enough to stay in one of your games, or did I miss an opportunity to solve the problem in front of me?

Super late edit #2: I guess you could say I had a "Coach Encounter of the Third Kind".

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Apologies in advance for the long post, but this is a game management situation. Sometimes context is not succinct. Imagine, if you will, a game where you have one of "those" coaches. A coach who almost knows the rules, almost knows umpire mechanics, and most importantly, constantly almost crosses the line. I recently had one of those games. (NFHS, for reference)

I like to think I have decent game management. Not great, I will admit, but decent. When is "enough" enough and you send him off? My sitch: HS game, with "that coach". I am BU, 2-man. Coach's team in 3B dugout. No comments were directed at me that I could hear from the dugout; all encounters were face to face.

1st encounter: Coach on defense, R1 on 1B, BR bunts. The throw from F5 to 1B takes F3 across the double bag where she drags a toe across both sides of the double bag for the out. From about 20 feet on a 45 angle with the bag, I point, say "Yes, she got it!" and sell the out signal. R1 advances to 2B. As I jog to C, Coach jogs to meet me. We have the usual back and forth where he wants me to go for help, and I ask him what question he has about the play. What does he think I missed? I tell him I won't ask for help on the touch at 1B as I'm 100% sure on it. He says I was totally out of position (wrong, but irrelevant) and the stereotypical "that's terrible" grumble-grumble. He keeps chirping as he leaves and I tell him that's enough to his back as he walks away, and give a stop sign. Life moves on.

2nd encounter: Steal at 2B, R1 only. Coach on defense again. The ball arrives in plenty of time and F6 tags nothing but air. R1 slides past 2B...I have no tag and an overslide, so I delay my call. F6 does not re-apply the tag, so when R1 touches the base I give a routine safe call. Coach jogs out again and asks what I saw. I tell him "No tag." Coach says "And what was your positioning?" I tell him we are not having that debate today. For what it's worth, I had a near-perfect 90 at a distance of 8-10 feet from 2B, and closed to 6 feet on the missed tag/overslide. He walks off, repeating the stereotypical "that's terrible" grumble-grumble. I can live with this. Life goes on, again.

3rd encounter: Coach on defense again; R2 on 2B. Ball is hit to RF/CF gap, and I read the speedy BR as probably going to try for a triple, so I say outside on the SS side. (Whether or not this is lazy 2-man mechanics is another conversation, and not relevant to the play. Yes, I should have busted in, but it would not change the play.) BR goes to 3B as expected, and is there in plenty of time before the throw. I get an easy 90 on the 3B foul line. The ball comes in late, F5 straddling 3B, and tags the BR as she finishes her pop-up slide. This play is 100% routine, and I give no signal since Blind Grandma in the stands could have made that call. UH-OH: here comes Coach jogging out again.

(For purposes of future discussion) Moment #1: I put up the stop sign as he comes out of the dugout and tell him "There wasn't a play - we have nothing to talk about." I'm right by his dugout. He keeps coming.

Moment #2: I say again + stop sign: "Coach, no need to come out on this. I'm not going for help here." He keeps coming.

Moment #3: He arrives. He says "You aren't going for help on that play? You were right on the line. You can't see the ball from there." I say "Nope." He replies, "I work with USA Softball and I don't know what's wrong with some of you umpires, never going for help." He never questioned the call, or lack of signal. He came out to argue a non-call, of all things. I say nothing. He glares at me and goes back to his bucket.

And finally we arrive at the postgame question: At any moment in this game, should I have ejected? He toed the line quite well, and got under my skin enough for me to post this. Did he walk the fine line well enough to stay in one of your games, or did I miss an opportunity to solve the problem in front of me?

His Second Encounter would have ended with a Restriction to the Dugout. Any more nonsense would have ended with the HC receiving an "E Ticket Ride" to the Locker Room or Bus.

MTD, Sr.

[RKBUmp]

Works with USA softball? I think I know exactly which coach you are talking about. If it is, he has a long history of trying to manipulate umpires and coming out for no reason.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Well, each umpire/individual has a different tolerance level. It is hard to tell how the game and the emotions progressed.

Just reading what was posted, I don't think I'd have an ejection. But maybe if I was having an overall bad day, my trigger might have been a little quicker.

I've not ejected a lot of game participants. I've only tossed 2 guys in the last couple of years for dropping a f-bomb. They weren't even directed at me, but a couple of our leagues have a rule about using bad words and if the umpire hears those magic words, the individual is gone.

Your mileage may vary...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I've not ejected a lot of game participants. I've only tossed 2 guys in the last couple of years for dropping a f-bomb. They weren't even directed at me, but a couple of our leagues have a rule about using bad words and if the umpire hears those magic words, the individual is gone.

Do they give you a printed list? I resolve that issue simply by not hearing those words

[Tru_in_Blu]

One league does (church league). The other we remind at the plate conference by giving a "profanity warning".

Even though I suffer from hearing loss, if the words are audible, the player has to go. The other team has ears, too, you know?

[BlueDevilRef]

I may be a stickler about this and will likely hear some grumbling from others but a coach that just comes out onto the field without being granted time out is not cool with me. I address that immediately and restrict if it happens again. Just bc a play happened they don’t like does not mean the ball is dead.

You didn’t specifically mention it but it’s just a thought I had.

More to your specific point, I would have warned him on the second act for sure and prob the first. He’s gotta focus on the play and not try to influence calls so much.

And it’s a common saying in basketball: you never regret the T’s you give but almost always regret the ones you didn’t. Sounds like you got that happening right now.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by teebob21

1st encounter: Coach on offense, R1 on 1B, BR bunts. ... He keeps chirping as he leaves and I tell him that's enough to his back as he walks away, and give a stop sign. Life moves on.

To add my 40 percent of a nickel, this is where you lost him and your game. Why would you respond to his back as he is walking away? Do you need to have the last word? Also, you gave the "stop sign" to his back (and therefore didn't see it)?

Now you have created a no win situation. Either he didn't hear you and he is now in your head, or he knows that he can manipulate you. Not to mention that you are now emotionally invested with this guy.

For situation #1, I'm handing this way:
Coach: go for help
Me: are you asking about not contacting the bag or did you think the runner beat the ball? (yes, I ask this questions, I don't waste time by making the coach play the guessing game).
**
coach1: the runner beat the ball
me: sorry coach, that's a judgement play and my partner can't help. Let's play ball (as I go back to my position)
coach2: she didn't get the bag
me: coach, I had a pretty good look at it and I'm sure. I'll ask if you want, but I'm sure ask to what he is going to say.
rationale: I'll give him a quick "ask" because that's what he wanted, but I also let him know it was futile. This also removes him from me and the game continues.
***
Either way, I'm not going to argue with him or have the last word. When he leaves, it's over for me. If he wants to argue, I'll say: "coach, time to play" and leave him. If he continues and starts to approach me, then I have restriction/ejection options.

However, neither time will I give the "stop sign." There is a wonderful discussion about this form of communication on the basketball board, and how the NBA feels about it. I would not have given the signal in the other situations either, as it just sets a bad tone.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

However, neither time will I give the "stop sign." There is a wonderful discussion about this form of communication on the basketball board, and how the NBA feels about it. I would not have given the signal in the other situations either, as it just sets a bad tone.

I don't disagree, but contend a "stop sign" can be effective and the use of it would depend on the manner in which the coach, or whomever, is approaching me.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I don't disagree, but contend a "stop sign" can be effective and the use of it would depend on the manner in which the coach, or whomever, is approaching me.

I do agree, in the manner of "nothing is absolute." I would say, as a rule, the stop sign is bad. However, there is a time and place, such as "hard charging coach or player" or anything on the extreme end.

Stop sign could work for basketball (actually encouraged in NCAA-W as a warning method prior to T, and it should be seen on camera from my understanding) due to the continuous action.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

I do agree, in the manner of "nothing is absolute." I would say, as a rule, the stop sign is bad. However, there is a time and place, such as "hard charging coach or player" or anything on the extreme end.

Stop sign could work for basketball (actually encouraged in NCAA-W as a warning method prior to T, and it should be seen on camera from my understanding) due to the continuous action.

I have taught new umpires that if they felt uncomfortable in the manner in which a coach/player is approaching them to take a step backward (as to not be confused to be taking a challenging stance) and raise their hand and calmly tell them it is close enough.

If the individual stops, drop the hand and carry on with the discussion. If they keep coming and cause you to retreat to avoid contact, it is probably time for them to go.

This is a very stressful situation for a rookie umpire and they need to have an idea of how to handle it. I've never had any negative feedback, but a few positive reactions indicating that the maneuver worked. Only once did it result in an ejection, but the young (18yo) umpire turned it into a positive experience.

Though you don't want to scare the newbies, I believe it is better to prepare them for the inevitable.