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Old Thu Oct 12, 2017, 12:20am
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Score the run on a triple play?

So...this is brought to you all by Third World Sports(TM)...aka middle school softball. This happened to me tonight. Single man umpiring, but that's not relevant to the play. NFHS rules, with modifications for a pitching machine (again, not relevant to the play).

Bases loaded, no outs. For convention's sake, R1 on 1B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 3B. The pitch is lined to F6 for a catch (Out #1). All runners leave on contact. F6 throws to F5, who never touches 3B, but F5 does tag R2 off the base for Out #2. The ball is then overthrown to 2B where F9 picks it up and throws to the pitcher, who misplays it. F2 gets the ball and throws again to to F4 at 2B where R1 is standing in contact with the base. She makes the tag, and says "She never tagged up!" This is a valid live-ball appeal, for Out #3.

Everyone leaves the field on the L6-5-9-1-2-4 triple play.

Here's what I realized later: R3 scored on a time play. No one picked up on it at the time, including me! I know she could have been ruled out for leaving before the ball was touched for a fourth-out appeal, but that never happened.

Question: What is the proper time-play mechanic here?
Do we point to the plate and alert the scorekeeper like usual on a time play? If so, does this unfairly alert the defense to an appeal opportunity?
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2016 Game Counts -- Travel Ball: 57 | Juco: 32 | HS: 14 | NAIA: 10 | NCAA: 5 | NCAA Fall Ball: 12 | Camp: 5 | Three-man: 30 | EJ's: 1

2017 Game Counts -- Travel Ball: 37 | Juco: 34 | HS: 18 | NCAA: 2 | Fall Ball: 11 | Camp: 3 | Three-man: 23 | EJ's: 1

Last edited by teebob21; Thu Oct 12, 2017 at 12:26am. Reason: formatting
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Old Thu Oct 12, 2017, 12:54am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
So...this is brought to you all by Third World Sports(TM)...aka middle school softball. This happened to me tonight. Single man umpiring, but that's not relevant to the play. NFHS rules, with modifications for a pitching machine (again, not relevant to the play).

Bases loaded, no outs. For convention's sake, R1 on 1B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 3B. The pitch is lined to F6 for a catch (Out #1). All runners leave on contact. F6 throws to F5, who never touches 3B, but F5 does tag R2 off the base for Out #2. The ball is then overthrown to 2B where F9 picks it up and throws to the pitcher, who misplays it. F2 gets the ball and throws again to to F4 at 2B where R1 is standing in contact with the base. She makes the tag, and says "She never tagged up!" This is a valid live-ball appeal, for Out #3.

Everyone leaves the field on the L6-5-9-1-2-4 triple play.

Here's what I realized later: R3 scored on a time play. No one picked up on it at the time, including me! I know she could have been ruled out for leaving before the ball was touched for a fourth-out appeal, but that never happened.

Question: What is the proper time-play mechanic here?
Do we point to the plate and alert the scorekeeper like usual on a time play? If so, does this unfairly alert the defense to an appeal opportunity?
R1 on 3B w 2 outs. Ball hit for an apparent double but the BR tries to stretch it to a triple where she is thrown out. Do you point to the plate saying the run scored? I've understood it to be a mechanic more appropriate for close time plays.
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Old Thu Oct 12, 2017, 01:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump View Post
R1 on 3B w 2 outs. Ball hit for an apparent double but the BR tries to stretch it to a triple where she is thrown out. Do you point to the plate saying the run scored? I've understood it to be a mechanic more appropriate for close time plays.
I understand the scenario, but from a novice scorekeeper's perspective the play is different. In your example, no, I don't point....both benches expect that run to score on the base hit. No need to sell/communicate the run. On my triple play....no one expected a runner to score; not even me. This example (had I recognized it at the time) seems to be a "close" time play. I think I should have announced the run, but that's why I posted....does announcing the run "give it away" to the defense?
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Umpiring Goals: NCAA D1 postseason/ISF Certification/Nat'l Indicator Fraternity
2016 Game Counts -- Travel Ball: 57 | Juco: 32 | HS: 14 | NAIA: 10 | NCAA: 5 | NCAA Fall Ball: 12 | Camp: 5 | Three-man: 30 | EJ's: 1

2017 Game Counts -- Travel Ball: 37 | Juco: 34 | HS: 18 | NCAA: 2 | Fall Ball: 11 | Camp: 3 | Three-man: 23 | EJ's: 1

Last edited by teebob21; Thu Oct 12, 2017 at 01:05am.
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Old Thu Oct 12, 2017, 01:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
I understand the scenario, but from a novice scorekeeper's perspective the play is different. In your example, no, I don't point....both benches expect that run to score on the base hit. No need to sell/communicate the run. On my triple play....no one expected a runner to score; not even me. This example (had I recognized it at the time) seems to be a "close" time play. I think I should have announced the run, but that's why I posted....does announcing the run "give it away" to the defense?
Why wouldn't you expect the runner from third to score? It sounds like the timing would have been almost exactly my play. It's only "close" because the runner at third is subject to appeal. I think (until the folks who know what they are doing show up) you should do exactly what you'd do if the runner had properly tagged up.
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Old Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:03am
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Appeals are only before the infielders leave the field. If you are concerned about tipping the defense, wait until then.

Conceptually like waiting for an appeal for missed HP, or when time for you to leave the field.
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Old Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
So...this is brought to you all by Third World Sports(TM)...aka middle school softball. This happened to me tonight. Single man umpiring, but that's not relevant to the play. NFHS rules, with modifications for a pitching machine (again, not relevant to the play).
See bolded.
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Old Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:21am
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The half inning is over; it is middle school ball so low level they don't even have pitchers. Just wander over to the scorekeeper(s) and tell them. No need for signals or anything else.
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Old Thu Oct 12, 2017, 10:27am
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Craziest scenario I've read in a while. They should have paid you double for trying to figure out the chaos. "Third World Sports". LOLOL. It amazes me that a middle school game is using a pitching machine. That's the equivalent of 8 year olds in Little League. Wow.
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Old Thu Oct 12, 2017, 10:40am
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Look at the level of play ......


Can it EVER be assumed that anything is obvious??

As soon as the last infielder crosses the foul line headed off the field, I am pointing the run scored.
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Old Thu Oct 12, 2017, 02:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota View Post
The half inning is over; it is middle school ball so low level they don't even have pitchers. Just wander over to the scorekeeper(s) and tell them. No need for signals or anything else.
The scorekeeper was a Grandpa who got recruited at the last minute since the home team had only 1 coach available, an assistant. I don't think he'd ever kept score before. I saw his scorebook between innings, and he'd marked an X on each base the runners reached.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaincoach View Post
Craziest scenario I've read in a while. They should have paid you double for trying to figure out the chaos. "Third World Sports". LOLOL. It amazes me that a middle school game is using a pitching machine. That's the equivalent of 8 year olds in Little League. Wow.
Yeah, it's bad ball. These are 11-12 year olds. If they were better players, they'd be on club teams right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
As soon as the last infielder crosses the foul line headed off the field, I am pointing the run scored.
This makes perfect sense. For some dumb reason, I was thinking we needed to announce the run quickly. Like the old adage goes, it's nothing until we call it and there is no need to rush. The call is the call is the call.
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2016 Game Counts -- Travel Ball: 57 | Juco: 32 | HS: 14 | NAIA: 10 | NCAA: 5 | NCAA Fall Ball: 12 | Camp: 5 | Three-man: 30 | EJ's: 1

2017 Game Counts -- Travel Ball: 37 | Juco: 34 | HS: 18 | NCAA: 2 | Fall Ball: 11 | Camp: 3 | Three-man: 23 | EJ's: 1

Last edited by teebob21; Thu Oct 12, 2017 at 02:13pm.
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Old Thu Oct 12, 2017, 02:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
Look at the level of play ......


Can it EVER be assumed that anything is obvious??

As soon as the last infielder crosses the foul line headed off the field, I am pointing the run scored.
It's always great when we agree.
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Old Thu Oct 12, 2017, 04:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
The scorekeeper was a Grandpa who got recruited at the last minute since the home team had only 1 coach available, an assistant. I don't think he'd ever kept score before. I saw his scorebook between innings, and he'd marked an X on each base the runners reached...l.
Even more reason to just tell him. What makes you think he would know what your signal even means?

At this level of ball, the only score-keeping that matters are runs scored.
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