The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 20, 2017, 09:17pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Virginia
Posts: 161
Appeal play - how to call it

I was PU. R1 on 2nd, 1 out. Batter grounds out F3 unassisted. R1 chugs into 3rd and rounds the base. However she thought there were 3 outs and turned around and began running to her defensive position (thinking someone would bring her glove, I guess) she then realized that there were only 2 outs and would up safe back on 2nd. However she never retouched 3rd on her way. The defensive coach comes out to me and says that R1 missed third on her way back. I turn around and call her out for not retouching, but didn't verbalize that I was making the call "on appeal." My partner says to the whole stadium that the runner is not out and simply surrendered her right to third. I told my partner that that runner was my responsibility once she rounded third and my call would stand. So we talked about this after the game and he told me that unless I verbalized that my call was on appeal, he could only assume that I was making a call I could not make (because that call can only be made on appeal) and even if R1 hadn't retouched 3rd, the correct call is to treat her action as a legal surrender of 3B. So was my call improperly made and was BU correct in his action?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 20, 2017, 09:27pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Woodstock, GA; Atlanta area
Posts: 2,809
First, it is helpful to all in this forum when you indicate what set of rules are applicable. Was this NFHS, NCAA, USA/ASA, USSSA??

By and large, I would say you made YOUR call, and that BU overstepped his role. The appeal was made to YOU, regarding YOUR base, and you ruled appropriately. He had no role in that call, and violated the rule that I believe exists in most every set of rules, that he not comment nor attempt to be involved in, or change any call YOU make unless asked by YOU.
__________________
Steve
ASA/ISF/NCAA/NFHS/PGF
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 21, 2017, 07:52am
Moderator M-800
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
I'll be less diplomatic --- partner is an idiot. In all rulesets.
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 21, 2017, 09:08am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTQ_Blue View Post
I was PU. R1 on 2nd, 1 out. Batter grounds out F3 unassisted. R1 chugs into 3rd and rounds the base. However she thought there were 3 outs and turned around and began running to her defensive position (thinking someone would bring her glove, I guess) she then realized that there were only 2 outs and would up safe back on 2nd. However she never retouched 3rd on her way. The defensive coach comes out to me and says that R1 missed third on her way back. I turn around and call her out for not retouching, but didn't verbalize that I was making the call "on appeal." My partner says to the whole stadium that the runner is not out and simply surrendered her right to third. I told my partner that that runner was my responsibility once she rounded third and my call would stand. So we talked about this after the game and he told me that unless I verbalized that my call was on appeal, he could only assume that I was making a call I could not make (because that call can only be made on appeal) and even if R1 hadn't retouched 3rd, the correct call is to treat her action as a legal surrender of 3B. So was my call improperly made and was BU correct in his action?
I would inform the OC about the appeal, then call the out.
No need for a major announcement.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 21, 2017, 09:08am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
I'll be less diplomatic --- partner is an idiot. In all rulesets.
Even w/o announcing to the whole stadium.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 21, 2017, 10:15am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 2,672
There's some lessons to be learned here by both you and your partner.

The touch at third is your responsibility, therefore it's your call on an appeal.

As Cecil said, I would make sure that everybody knew that we had an appeal for the runner not re-touching third on her way back to second and that you were upholding the appeal and the runner was out.

Your partner should not have said anything, and if he had a question about what was happening, call time and come talk to you in private so you're both on the same page.

Your partner's actions probably made it appear that he didn't have confidence in your ruling and was making sure everybody knew it...all this is going to do is provide ammunition for the next time one of the coaches doesn't like your call and tries to work your partner against you.
__________________
It's what you learn after you think you know it all that's important!
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 21, 2017, 10:40am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Virginia
Posts: 161
So I discussed this with the Commissioner of the Association. BU is well known in the ass'n for trying to "run the show" as he put it. He offered to not assign us to work together but I said that I'd like to work with him again and I'd try to have a frank pregame about working as a team. He has been around a long time and may be set in his ways, but he actually knows a lot so I'll try to make it work. If it doesn't I'll take the Commish's offer.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 21, 2017, 10:53am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,560
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTQ_Blue View Post
So I discussed this with the Commissioner of the Association. BU is well known in the ass'n for trying to "run the show" as he put it. He offered to not assign us to work together but I said that I'd like to work with him again and I'd try to have a frank pregame about working as a team. He has been around a long time and may be set in his ways, but he actually knows a lot so I'll try to make it work. If it doesn't I'll take the Commish's offer.
"Been around a long time" means only one thing, that he has been around a long time. It does not mean he has been doing it right all that time, just that he has persistently survived.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 21, 2017, 10:56am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTQ_Blue View Post
So I discussed this with the Commissioner of the Association. BU is well known in the ass'n for trying to "run the show" as he put it. He offered to not assign us to work together but I said that I'd like to work with him again and I'd try to have a frank pregame about working as a team. He has been around a long time and may be set in his ways, but he actually knows a lot so I'll try to make it work. If it doesn't I'll take the Commish's offer.
Good move. Great attitude !
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:58pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,197
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTQ_Blue View Post
I was PU. R1 on 2nd, 1 out. Batter grounds out F3 unassisted. R1 chugs into 3rd and rounds the base. However she thought there were 3 outs and turned around and began running to her defensive position (thinking someone would bring her glove, I guess) she then realized that there were only 2 outs and would up safe back on 2nd. However she never retouched 3rd on her way. The defensive coach comes out to me and says that R1 missed third on her way back. I turn around and call her out for not retouching, but didn't verbalize that I was making the call "on appeal." My partner says to the whole stadium that the runner is not out and simply surrendered her right to third. I told my partner that that runner was my responsibility once she rounded third and my call would stand. So we talked about this after the game and he told me that unless I verbalized that my call was on appeal, he could only assume that I was making a call I could not make (because that call can only be made on appeal) and even if R1 hadn't retouched 3rd, the correct call is to treat her action as a legal surrender of 3B. So was my call improperly made and was BU correct in his action?
If you don't mind, I'm somewhat curious how it played out after this. As in which coach did you all end up tossing? Or how did you avoid that?
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 21, 2017, 01:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Virginia
Posts: 161
This game was on the way to a 20-0 slaughter rule outcome. The winning team made the base running gaffe. Their coach was not looking to further humiliate the other team by arguing that call. I told her her runner was out on appeal and she said "that's the right call."
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 21, 2017, 04:46pm
Moderator M-800
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTQ_Blue View Post
So I discussed this with the Commissioner of the Association. BU is well known in the ass'n for trying to "run the show" as he put it. He offered to not assign us to work together but I said that I'd like to work with him again and I'd try to have a frank pregame about working as a team. He has been around a long time and may be set in his ways, but he actually knows a lot so I'll try to make it work. If it doesn't I'll take the Commish's offer.
It's been my experience that umpires who have "been around a long time" but are "set in their ways" rarely "know a lot". They THINK they do ... but they often "know" things that are either no longer or true or were never true.

Good long-time umpires are not set in their ways. Because ways change.
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 21, 2017, 10:44pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Woodstock, GA; Atlanta area
Posts: 2,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
It's been my experience that umpires who have "been around a long time" but are "set in their ways" rarely "know a lot". They THINK they do ... but they often "know" things that are either no longer or true or were never true.

Good long-time umpires are not set in their ways. Because ways change.
Once upon a time I was convinced to officiate football. The trainer of that organization said it this way to the newbies:

Decide who to trust and who to believe. There are two types of "I'm a 10th year official"; the one that has 9 years of experience, and the one that is a 1st year official for the 10th time."

Never truer words, and a message I will never forget.
__________________
Steve
ASA/ISF/NCAA/NFHS/PGF
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is an appeal a play? TussAgee11 Baseball 6 Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:55am
Appeal Play goldcoastump Softball 8 Sun May 11, 2008 11:53am
OBR Appeal Play JCurrie Baseball 5 Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:23am
Appeal Play efllblue Baseball 1 Tue Jul 10, 2001 07:10am
ASA appeal play oppool Softball 2 Fri Feb 23, 2001 10:47pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:54pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1