Thoughts on this SNAFU....

[Andy]

I was contacted by a local HS umpire yesterday with the following situation:

R1 on third, 2 outs, x-2 count on the batter.
Pitch is strike three, ball gets past the catcher (U3K)
Runner on third attempts to score, batter-runner does not move from the batter's box
PU calls DEAD BALL and declares batter out on strike three, no run scores. (brain fart)
Offensive coach comes out to question the call

The umpire that contacted me wanted to know what I would do to "fix" this screwup. I would like to hear your opinions before I tell you what I recommended and what the two umpires on the field actually did.

[BlueDevilRef]

I quit. My brain already exploded.

If you award the out with thought batter would not have beat throw to first, runner can't score and the OC is pissed. If you say batter runner would have reached first, then do you allow runner to score? If so then D.C. Is pissed.

Can we go back to playground rules and just yell "Do Over"?

[CecilOne]

First, it does not matter if either coach is upset, as long as we get it correct; or at least think we did.

Obviously, there is no real answer, AND we can't assume anything about actions of the catcher, fielder, BR or R1.

Looking for an escape, is BR now out for not reaching 1st while ball was alive?

I might decide that as I could not have called "dead ball" in that situation that it does not apply; whatever happens applies, which means the BR would eventually reach 1st or be putout.

Or, on the spur of the moment, "SORRY COACHES", my call stands. Bad idea, but probably a bell I can't unring.

Maybe more guessing later, but looking forward to responses.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Andy

I was contacted by a local HS umpire yesterday with the following situation:

R1 on third, 2 outs, x-2 count on the batter.
Pitch is strike three, ball gets past the catcher (U3K)
Runner on third attempts to score, batter-runner does not move from the batter's box
PU calls DEAD BALL and declares batter out on strike three, no run scores. (brain fart)
Offensive coach comes out to question the call

The umpire that contacted me wanted to know what I would do to "fix" this screwup. I would like to hear your opinions before I tell you what I recommended and what the two umpires on the field actually did.

It's an inadvertent call of time. The runner has to go back to third. Since the batter runner wasn't put out she gets first.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by youngump

It's an inadvertent call of time. The runner has to go back to third. Since the batter runner wasn't put out she gets first.

Good one.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by youngump

It's an inadvertent call of time. The runner has to go back to third. Since the batter runner wasn't put out she gets first.

Not a "fix" as requested by Andy, but the only answer supported by the rules. And I suspect this was Andy's answer, but betting the crew did something different to appease and compromise.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by youngump

It's an inadvertent call of time. The runner has to go back to third. Since the batter runner wasn't put out she gets first.

That is what the crew did.

However, my advice to them was a little bit different. I advised them to eat the call, take the heat from the coaches, and move on to the next inning. By inadvertently calling time, you have placed both teams at a disadvantage by not allowing the offense the opportunity to score and the defense by not allowing them the opportunity to get an out. Placing the batter runner on first and the other runner back at third base is an advantage to the offense while taking away the opportunity for the defense to make a play. Yeah, it's a cluster but I think in this case it's something that we just have to live with.

[IRISHMAFIA]

But it was not an inadvertent act, but a complete misinterpretation of the rule which is protestable.

The run cannot score without the BR being awarded 1st. If it had been protested, I would probably do exactly what youngump & Steve suggested. And I do not believe that such a ruling causes either team a disadvantage that wasn't earned. The defense's failure created the situation and the BRs lack of action doesn't help an offensive argument.

However, I would like to know the timing between the strike and the DB call by the umpire. Was the PUs call delayed or immediate?

Then again, it certainly wouldn't break my heart (or that of any umpire's, I assume) if the U3K rule was eliminated from the rule book all together

[CecilOne]

In post #3, I said:
I might decide that as I could not have called "dead ball" in that situation that it does not apply; whatever happens applies, which means the BR would eventually reach 1st or be putout.

Somewhat like saying inadvertent, except not awarding anything.
Please find fault with this.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

That is what the crew did.

However, my advice to them was a little bit different. I advised them to eat the call, take the heat from the coaches, and move on to the next inning. By inadvertently calling time, you have placed both teams at a disadvantage by not allowing the offense the opportunity to score and the defense by not allowing them the opportunity to get an out. Placing the batter runner on first and the other runner back at third base is an advantage to the offense while taking away the opportunity for the defense to make a play. Yeah, it's a cluster but I think in this case it's something that we just have to live with.

The problem with this solution is that they called a dead ball so that the batter-runner could not be put out, and, by rule, that BR just was not out. You cannot eat that call and live with the out, it never happened, and it cannot be justified. Even though the defense lost the opportunity to make an out, you simply cannot create one where one doesn't exist to "fix" that.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

In post #3, I said:
I might decide that as I could not have called "dead ball" in that situation that it does not apply; whatever happens applies, which means the BR would eventually reach 1st or be putout.

Somewhat like saying inadvertent, except not awarding anything.
Please find fault with this.

OK, fault #1, there can not be an out (as Steve said).

It seems to me there are cases, trying to remember one, where we expect the teams to know the rule and situation even when we mess up. Does that apply to the above?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

OK, fault #1, there can not be an out (as Steve said).

It seems to me there are cases, trying to remember one, where we expect the teams to know the rule and situation even when we mess up. Does that apply to the above?

You are thinking about an umpire giving the wrong count, wrong number of outs, or even declaring an infield fly when one cannot exist by rule. It remains the teams' responsibility to know what is what.

But we simply cannot generate an out that doesn't exist during a declared dead ball. That's the biggest problem with this situation and suggested solutions.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

You are thinking about an umpire giving the wrong count, wrong number of outs, or even declaring an infield fly when one cannot exist by rule. It remains the teams' responsibility to know what is what.

But we simply cannot generate an out that doesn't exist during a declared dead ball. That's the biggest problem with this situation and suggested solutions.

I worked with Andy this weekend and we briefly discussed this play. My initial thought was, dead ball (improperly called) after strike three...that's an out. Inning over. After reading this thread, I may yet change my opinion, and present a generic example.

If the ball is live (batted or otherwise) and the BR has the right to advance but has not yet reached 1B: what should we do if an umpire errs and declares the ball dead....due to injury....due to lightning.....due to not knowing the rule? In this ugly circumstance, and absent an interpretation from TPTB, I would award the BR first base. I would also rule that runners could be advanced based on what was likely *at the moment play was killed*. In this case, the R3 was maybe not likely to score *at the moment play was killed*.

It's too bad this call was made. It's also a good thing umpires are human...it gives us something to talk about.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by teebob21

If the ball is live (batted or otherwise) and the BR has the right to advance but has not yet reached 1B: what should we do if an umpire errs and declares the ball dead....due to injury....due to lightning.....due to not knowing the rule? In this ugly circumstance, and absent an interpretation from TPTB, I would award the BR first base.

Just be careful that you look for those interpretations that are out there by TPTB, as you call them.

For example, the NCAA SUP (and probably others) has said that an erroneous Foul call cannot be fixed, even if the batter would have easily reached first base on the play.

The OP is a unique situation because the ball wasn't declared Foul, so ruling it as Foul does not apply. It would be interesting to get the SUP's take on this.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

It would be interesting to get the SUP's take on this.

I'll stick with Steve's and I think they would also.