Thoughts on this SNAFU....

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

OK, fault #1, there can not be an out (as Steve said).

It seems to me there are cases, trying to remember one, where we expect the teams to know the rule and situation even when we mess up. Does that apply to the above?

You are thinking about an umpire giving the wrong count, wrong number of outs, or even declaring an infield fly when one cannot exist by rule. It remains the teams' responsibility to know what is what.

But we simply cannot generate an out that doesn't exist during a declared dead ball. That's the biggest problem with this situation and suggested solutions.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

You are thinking about an umpire giving the wrong count, wrong number of outs, or even declaring an infield fly when one cannot exist by rule. It remains the teams' responsibility to know what is what.

But we simply cannot generate an out that doesn't exist during a declared dead ball. That's the biggest problem with this situation and suggested solutions.

I worked with Andy this weekend and we briefly discussed this play. My initial thought was, dead ball (improperly called) after strike three...that's an out. Inning over. After reading this thread, I may yet change my opinion, and present a generic example.

If the ball is live (batted or otherwise) and the BR has the right to advance but has not yet reached 1B: what should we do if an umpire errs and declares the ball dead....due to injury....due to lightning.....due to not knowing the rule? In this ugly circumstance, and absent an interpretation from TPTB, I would award the BR first base. I would also rule that runners could be advanced based on what was likely *at the moment play was killed*. In this case, the R3 was maybe not likely to score *at the moment play was killed*.

It's too bad this call was made. It's also a good thing umpires are human...it gives us something to talk about.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by teebob21

If the ball is live (batted or otherwise) and the BR has the right to advance but has not yet reached 1B: what should we do if an umpire errs and declares the ball dead....due to injury....due to lightning.....due to not knowing the rule? In this ugly circumstance, and absent an interpretation from TPTB, I would award the BR first base.

Just be careful that you look for those interpretations that are out there by TPTB, as you call them.

For example, the NCAA SUP (and probably others) has said that an erroneous Foul call cannot be fixed, even if the batter would have easily reached first base on the play.

The OP is a unique situation because the ball wasn't declared Foul, so ruling it as Foul does not apply. It would be interesting to get the SUP's take on this.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

It would be interesting to get the SUP's take on this.

I'll stick with Steve's and I think they would also.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by teebob21

I would also rule that runners could be advanced based on what was likely *at the moment play was killed*. In this case, the R3 was maybe not likely to score *at the moment play was killed*.

I don't think this is right. If you call time, the play is over and you don't guess at where runners would have gotten too. I don't think it matters if R3 was sliding into home with the ball in the outfield. You cannot score during a dead ball and there's no rule that allows you to award home here. The best I could think you could stretch with is the jeopardy rule. But there you have to be reversing some call.

[MD Longhorn]

If you kill a live ball, you do not place runners unless a specific rule tells you to (for example, when an obstructed runner is put out). 95% of the time, the get the base achieved at the moment you killed it.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

If you kill a live ball, you do not place runners unless a specific rule tells you to (for example, when an obstructed runner is put out). 95% of the time, the get the base achieved at the moment you killed it.

What would you do with the BR in the OP; who can not be out and is no longer at bat?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

What would you do with the BR in the OP; who can not be out and is no longer at bat?

1st base. Always.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

1st base. Always.

Of course, just teasing you about "do not place runners unless a specific rule tells you to ". I should have included