What's the call?

[BlueDevilRef]

Base hit with runner at third. One out. Ball comes home on relay throw. Catcher misses throw and it rebounds toward on deck batter who is about 8 ft past plate giving direction to runner attempting to score. Ball hits on deck batter and stops there. Catcher picks it up as another runner scores.

Your call as plate umpire? Rule cite please

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

Base hit with runner at third. One out. Ball comes home on relay throw. Catcher misses throw and it rebounds toward on deck batter who is about 8 ft past plate giving direction to runner attempting to score. Ball hits on deck batter and stops there. Catcher picks it up as another runner scores.

Your call as plate umpire? Rule cite please

Either the Catcher should have caught the relay throw or the IF who made the relay throw should have made a better relay throw.

MTD, Sr.

[josephrt1]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

Base hit with runner at third. One out. Ball comes home on relay throw. Catcher misses throw and it rebounds toward on deck batter who is about 8 ft past plate giving direction to runner attempting to score. Ball hits on deck batter and stops there. Catcher picks it up as another runner scores.

Your call as plate umpire? Rule cite please

I think its complex and you had ot be there but;

1. the rule is 7.1.D
"The on-deck batter may not interfere with a defensive player’s opportunity to make an out.
Effect:
1. The ball is dead.
2. If it involves a runner, the runner closest to home plate at the time of the interference shall be declared out.

2. The rule says interferes with a defensive players opportunity to make an out. I wouldn't know that unless i was there. Interference is a judgement call. I most likely have a dead ball because it hit a player who should have gotten out of the way. But could the catcher have made an out? Depends on where the runner was, was anyone covering the plate, could the catcher have gotten the ball if it didn't hit the on-deck batter.

If i don't think she (the catcher) could have made an out, i have a dead ball (blocked ball) and put runners back. (8.5.G.exception#3). If I think she might have gotten an out, runner closest to home would be out.

That's my 2 pennies worth.

[Umpire@1]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Either the Catcher should have caught the relay throw or the IF who made the relay throw should have made a better relay throw.

MTD, Sr.

Well that was pretty obvious.

[Umpire@1]

Originally Posted by josephrt1

I think its complex and you had ot be there but;

1. the rule is 7.1.D
"The on-deck batter may not interfere with a defensive player’s opportunity to make an out.
Effect:
1. The ball is dead.
2. If it involves a runner, the runner closest to home plate at the time of the interference shall be declared out.

2. The rule says interferes with a defensive players opportunity to make an out. I wouldn't know that unless i was there. Interference is a judgement call. I most likely have a dead ball because it hit a player who should have gotten out of the way. But could the catcher have made an out? Depends on where the runner was, was anyone covering the plate, could the catcher have gotten the ball if it didn't hit the on-deck batter.

If i don't think she could have made an out, i have a dead ball and put runners back. (8.5.G.exception#3). If I think she might have gotten an out, runner closest to home would be out.

That's my 2 pennies worth.

2 pennies well spent!! I am with you on it.

[BlueDevilRef]

Thanks for replies. I will pay some book time with those rules cited.

In this game, which ended 11-1 in 5, the play wasn't a big deal. But, always gotta make sure to get it right for the game when the run does matter or is the winning run etc.

I know not a lot of guys have not answered. I'm curious to see if anyone has anything else.

My call was the same as MTD by the way. On deck batter didn't interfere, ball hit her in leg and stopped. If anything, it helped the defense (I know that doesn't matter by rule) but regardless, we played on.

[IRISHMAFIA]

ODB's primary concern is to avoid affecting any play. Regardless of whether the ODB interfered with a possible play, IMO it is still a blocked ball.

[BlueDevilRef]

Rule in nfhs is 7-5-4-1. This rule says if no play is obvious, doesn't mention making an out. In my play, no play was obvious, however, should have placed runners back to bases at time of interference.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Playing devil's advocate here, are we all sure there is a call to be made??

To be interference, there must be a play that is interfered with. The person involved says there was no play.

To be a blocked ball (thus dead), the ball must be handled by someone not in the game, or touch offensive equipment left on the field, or similar. The on deck batter IS permitted on the field, WAS doing an approved function, and an errant throw hits him. How is this different than an errant throw hitting a base coach; the ball remains live when that happens, UNLESS the coach fails the same charge, to not interfere??

Based on the description of the play, and if I were in agreement on the field, the ball hitting the on-deck batter likely was advantageous to the defense. I submit that I could certainly accept a "no call", and ball remaining live, as an acceptable ruling based on those judgments.

[jmkupka]

not trying to add a "what if" scenario...
but it is likely that, in an effort to avoid getting hit by an errant throw, the ODB could ricochet the ball well away from a defender, in itself causing an advance in base(s). That could justify dead ball, runners return, while not necessarily being INT, no?

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

not trying to add a "what if" scenario...
but it is likely that, in an effort to avoid getting hit by an errant throw, the ODB could ricochet the ball well away from a defender, in itself causing an advance in base(s). That could justify dead ball, runners return, while not necessarily being INT, no?

Of course! That is what everyone has been saying, this play is a HTBT type of play. As described, ball gets away from catcher and ODB stops if from getting farther away from F2, where is the interference? If anything it helped F2 retrieve the ball faster?

Now if you change the play and the ODB kicked a slow moving ball farther away from F2 then of course you have the potential to have a different ruling on that play. Bottom line is if you judge the ODB's actions interfere with the defense's chance to get an out, you have a dead ball INT and someone is out.

[josephrt1]

Here is a question from 2016 ASA exam, Q7. Kind of similar to the question posed in this thread. The correct answer was D, dead ball, return runners. I think the question posed here is the same. In both Q7 and the question here, the offensive player was not where they are supposed to be. The ODB is allowed to "coach" at home plate but at 8 feet from the plate I want her to be alert and mobile. Getting hit by a throw at 8 feet, even if somewhat errant, I still think i have a blocked (dead) ball. If she were in the ODcircle, I would give more leeway. But I have not had to make this call on the field.

Q7 2016ASA: With no outs, R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, B3 hits an uncaught line drive to left field. R1 rounds 3B, R2 rounds 2B and looks at F7’s throw that goes over F6’s head and is heading toward the 1B dugout. Seeing the overthrow R1 advances toward home, R2 advances toward 3B and the batter runner toward 2B. Prior to any runner touching the next base the ball contacts an offensive team member sitting in the dugout on a bucket with their feet in live ball territory, there is no defensive player in the area that would be capable of making an out.
a. Umpire signals and verbalizes “Dead ball” and awards both R1 and R2 home and the BR 3B since the ball would have entered dead ball territory had it not hit the offensive player.
b. Umpire should let play continue since the ball bounced off the offensive player and remained in live ball territory.
c. Umpire signals and verbalizes “Dead ball” and rules R1 (the runner closest to home is out) due to interference by an offensive player.
d. Umpire signals and verbalizes “Dead ball” and returns all runners to the last base touched at the time of the blocked ball.

There was also Q2 on 2016 ASA exam where runner scored and while on her way to dugout was hit by errant throw. Similar situation based on ump judgement if interference or not. I actually had this happen a while back and I let that one play on. Runner who scored was returning to dugout, away from plate area and throw was very wild and hit her from the side. In this case she was doing what she was supposed to and i kept ball live.

But these all have nuance and are HTBT type situations.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Playing devil's advocate here, are we all sure there is a call to be made??

To be interference, there must be a play that is interfered with. The person involved says there was no play.

To be a blocked ball (thus dead), the ball must be handled by someone not in the game, or touch offensive equipment left on the field, or similar. The on deck batter IS permitted on the field, WAS doing an approved function, and an errant throw hits him. How is this different than an errant throw hitting a base coach; the ball remains live when that happens, UNLESS the coach fails the same charge, to not interfere??

Based on the description of the play, and if I were in agreement on the field, the ball hitting the on-deck batter likely was advantageous to the defense. I submit that I could certainly accept a "no call", and ball remaining live, as an acceptable ruling based on those judgments.

Actually, the ODB does not have approved functions. The rule (7.1.C) simply permits the ODB to leave the circle, it provides no additional protection and the ODB still cannot interfere with the defense attempting to make an out.

I agree, it doesn't seem to be INT. However, the ODB is not a player engaged in the game and meets the definition of a blocked ball.

[BlueDevilRef]

The nfhs rule does not mention making "an out". Only mention is of an obvious play.

In this play, my goof was not calling ball dead when it hit on deck batter, regardless of an obvious play (runner closest to home would be out) or not (runners return), ball should have been declared dead. It was a good learning experience and one I'll not miss again.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

Base hit with runner at third. One out. Ball comes home on relay throw. Catcher misses throw and it rebounds toward on deck batter who is about 8 ft past plate giving direction to runner attempting to score. Ball hits on deck batter and stops there. Catcher picks it up as another runner scores.

Your call as plate umpire? Rule cite please

On a base hit, a runner at third will usually NOT need directions from the ODB.

The OP scenario throws in a surprise when we learn that "another runner" scores.

So presumably, there were more runners on base than just on third. Unless the runner on third was a turtle, the throw to home (relayed from an outfielder) was not intended for that runner.

Although I don't think ASA is a specific as NFHS, 3-6-6 states:
Only the batter, runner(s), on-deck batter, coaches in the coach's box, bat/ball shaggers or one of the nine players on defense are permitted to be outside the designated dugout/bench or designated warm-up areas.

To me, that indicates that an ODB is indeed "engaged in the game".

And I'll second the opinions that if a thrown ball had hit a coach who was directing his base runners, that would be no more of an INT call than a ball who has hit (or deflected into) the ODB.

For me it would have to go back to the interpretation of having committed an act of interference. Simply standing there is typically not that.

Now, occasionally, I'll have an ODB run out into fair territory to retrieve a discarded bat. That's a little different if s/he suddenly is in the way of a throw. THAT would likely be an INT call.

PS: I expect to hear about ball shaggers a la Dusty Baker's kid who found himself in the middle of a play. I think he ended up being scooped up by a player who was scoring. Mark Grace?