ASA Coed Player Positioning

[NTX_Player]

'C' league coed, with a male batter, male F6 wants to play "deep" short, like 40 - 50 feet on the outfield grass. PU says no, F6 must play on the dirt in order to be considered an infielder. F6 believes he can play as deep as he wants, so long as he stays in front of the outfielders.

ASA Rule 1 says an Infielder is a fielder who defends the area of the field around first, second, third or shortstop areas, and an Outfielder defends the area of the field that the left, left-center, right-center, and right fielders play.

Based on the definitions, why can't F6 can't play that deep? How is this different from using one of the outfielders as a rover (no longer using "left, left-center, right-center, and right fielders"), or using an over-shift for a LH batter?

Please explain, and substantiate with rules. Thank you.

[Andy]

You've already cited the rule.

The rest is umpire judgement.

It matters in Co Ed play due to the fact that the rules define a specific number of infielders and outfielders of each gender. If, in the judgement of the umpire, the shortstop is playing too deep then the numbers are skewed and an adjustment must be made.

Again, it's all up to the judgement of the umpire on each players position. The word "around" in the text of the rule is intentionally a very broad term.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NTX_Player

'C' league coed, with a male batter, male F6 wants to play "deep" short, like 40 - 50 feet on the outfield grass. PU says no, F6 must play on the dirt in order to be considered an infielder. F6 believes he can play as deep as he wants, so long as he stays in front of the outfielders.

ASA Rule 1 says an Infielder is a fielder who defends the area of the field around first, second, third or shortstop areas, and an Outfielder defends the area of the field that the left, left-center, right-center, and right fielders play.

Based on the definitions, why can't F6 can't play that deep? How is this different from using one of the outfielders as a rover (no longer using "left, left-center, right-center, and right fielders"), or using an over-shift for a LH batter?

Please explain, and substantiate with rules. Thank you.

To start, the dirt is irrelevant to every rule in the book. It has zero meaning or weight in ASA ball.

If F6 has left the area normally covered by infielders, he is now an outfielders. You can only have 4 outfielders, 2 of each gender. Now, if every infielder wanted to play that deep, not a problem, then you still have 4 infielders, 2 of each gender, assuming you also have 4 outfielders all playing behind the infielders.

[MD Longhorn]

Honestly, this is an area the book is very much lacking.

In any other rule, if there is a term that is important to the enforcement of the rule, you can find that term defined in rule 1. "Infielder" is very vague. Every umpire's interpretation of the rule is going to differ on this one, and that's something we don't want.

Mike has hinted at one way some umpires would interpret it. I've come across some crazy ones.

Question for Mike - would you allow the following:

F3 (female) and F5 (male) playing inside the baseline about 2 steps.
F4 (female) and F6 (male) playing on the outfield grass about 10 yards.
F7 (female) and F10 (male) playing very near the foul lines, perhaps 5 yards deeper than F4 and F6.
F8 (male) and F9 (female) playing almost at the warning track, spread further wide than F4 and F6.

A local team used to line up this way. Some umpires would allow it, some not... they would invariably complain until they got their way, and then some UIC's would allow it, some not. Then some TD's yes, some no.

Biggest problem for me on this alignment was that they had, to my mind, 6 infielders, and while F10 was not closer to first base than F3 ... F10 could definitely make plays there, especially if the ball was hit to F1 or F5 (and moreso if the runner was slow).

Sometimes when someone argued the 6 infielder angle, they would move F4 and F6 back to be deeper than F7 and 10. Essentially all 4 "infielders" were on the foul lines, and all 4 "outfielders" closest to second base.

Sounds wonky - but they would shift around a lot based on the hitters, so defining who was what, exactly, for any given hitter was a nebulous thing.

[Andy]

I think the definition of infielder and outfielder are intentionally vague, since in all other games besides co-ed, it doesn't really matter. Co Ed is the only game where a certain number of players have to be infielders and a certain number of players have to be outfielders. In any other game, only two defensive players are limited on where they have to be at the start of the play, the pitcher and catcher. The other seven can be anywhere in fair territory.

Looking at the defensive alignment detailed by MD, my first thought would be to allow it, but I would really need to see it as I'm having a hard time visualizing "F4 and F6 about 10 yards on the grass" and how that looks on the field.

It all comes down to umpire judgement and the team needs to realize that not every umpire may allow their defensive positioning and adjust accordingly.