force out appeal

[CecilOne]

ASA RS 1, Force Out:
"On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred."

Some examples, please.

[Altor]

I think this is an example:

Bases loaded, two outs. Batter hits a ball in the gap that scores 2, but R2 misses third on the way to the plate. BR is thrown out at 2nd. Defense also appeals the missed base. R2 is out, run does not score. But, the preceding runner does score because both the third and fourth outs were timing plays.

vs.

Bases loaded, two outs. Batter hits a ball in the gap for a clean double, but R2 misses third on the way to the plate. Defense appeals the missed base. R2 is out, run does not score. In this case though, the out on R2 is also a force play which means the preceding runner does not score either.

[teebob21]

-- No one on. Base hit to the infield. The runner beats the throw but uses the white portion of the bag. The defense must appeal this. If, at the time of the appeal, the runner has already returned to 1B, the BR is safe.

-- Bases loaded, 1 out. Ball hit to F9 who throws to F3 for a force out at 1B. R1 advances to 3B but misses 2B. R2 and R3 score. When the defense appeals the missed base, the force is no longer in effect at the time of the appeal (although it was in effect at the time of the infraction). R1 may be called out for the third out of the inning, but both runs score.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by teebob21

-- No one on. Base hit to the infield. The runner beats the throw but uses the white portion of the bag. The defense must appeal this. If, at the time of the appeal, the runner has already returned to 1B, the BR is safe.

-- Bases loaded, 1 out. Ball hit to F9 who throws to F3 for a force out at 1B. R1 advances to 3B but misses 2B. R2 and R3 score. When the defense appeals the missed base, the force is no longer in effect at the time of the appeal (although it was in effect at the time of the infraction). R1 may be called out for the third out of the inning, but both runs score.

Your second example should not call the play to F3 a force out at 1B; it is impossible to have a force out at 1B. That said, it is another example of the force being removed at 2nd.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

it is impossible to have a force out at 1B.

Fair enough. I learned something today. In all respects that I can think of, it is identical to a force out (tag not necessary, runs do not score if ending the inning, etc.), yet is not as ASA defines a force out as applicable only to runners, not the BR.

Interestingly enough, I found another ASA/NCAA rules difference. I guess I learned two things today. In NCAA, the appeal of a missed forced base is treated as a force out, even if the batter/runner was put out or the force otherwise removed. NCAA 12.26.7

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Fair enough. I learned something today. In all respects that I can think of, it is identical to a force out (tag not necessary, runs do not score if ending the inning, etc.), yet is not as ASA defines a force out as applicable only to runners, not the BR.

Another difference being no previous base to go to if the force is removed.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Another difference being no previous base to go to if the force is removed.

Sure there is. If the on deck batter is put out before the BR is, then the BR may return to home and bat again. ;-)

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Altor

I think this is an example:

Bases loaded, two outs. Batter hits a ball in the gap that scores 2, but R2 misses third on the way to the plate. BR is thrown out at 2nd. Defense also appeals the missed base. R2 is out, run does not score. But, the preceding runner does score because both the third and fourth outs were timing plays.

vs.

Bases loaded, two outs. Batter hits a ball in the gap for a clean double, but R2 misses third on the way to the plate. Defense appeals the missed base. R2 is out, run does not score. In this case though, the out on R2 is also a force play which means the preceding runner does not score either.

Altor:

You are correct in your second play but incorrect in your first play.

No runs score. See NFHS Softball R9-S1-A1d and e.

MTD, Sr.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Altor:

You are correct in your second play but incorrect in your first play.

No runs score. See NFHS Softball R9-S1-A1d and e.

MTD, Sr.

How so? There was no force out based on the accurate statement made in the OP?

[Altor]

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr:

The OP is ASA, not NFHS.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Altor

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr:

The OP is ASA, not NFHS.

Agreed. From what I recall ASA considers the appeal of a force out a timing play. NFHS on the other hand considers the appeal of a force out to be a force out, thus negating any runs that score if the appealed force out is the 3rd out of the inning.

There was a case play IIRC (or maybe a test question), that read as follows:

R1 on 3rd, R2 on second, R1 on first, with 2 outs.

B6 his a ball into the corner and advances all the way to home plate. R2 missed third base. The defense properly appealed the missed base.

Ruling: R2 is out on a force out, and no runs score.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Agreed. From what I recall ASA considers the appeal of a force out a timing play. NFHS on the other hand considers the appeal of a force out to be a force out, thus negating any runs that score if the appealed force out is the 3rd out of the inning.

There was a case play IIRC (or maybe a test question), that read as follows:

R1 on 3rd, R2 on second, R1 on first, with 2 outs.

B6 his a ball into the corner and advances all the way to home plate. R2 missed third base. The defense properly appealed the missed base.

Ruling: R2 is out on a force out, and no runs score.

You are quoting an NFHS ruling, apparently??

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

You are quoting an NFHS ruling, apparently??

NFHS Case Book Rule: 9.1.1 situations J and several others after... NFHS definitely considers the appeal of a missed base to which the runner was forced to be a force out, even after the fact.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Agreed. From what I recall ASA considers the appeal of a force out a timing play.

That is not true. If the out effected was a force at the time of the appeal, it is still considered a force out.

NFHS on the other hand considers the appeal of a force out to be a force out, thus negating any runs that score if the appealed force out is the 3rd out of the inning.

It is a matter of when the force is in effect, not that ASA ignores it.

There was a case play IIRC (or maybe a test question), that read as follows:

R1 on 3rd, R2 on second, R1 on first, with 2 outs.

That R1 must be a helluva player

B6 his a ball into the corner and advances all the way to home plate. R2 missed third base. The defense properly appealed the missed base.

Ruling: R2 is out on a force out, and no runs score.

Same for ASA & NFHS

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

NFHS Case Book Rule: 9.1.1 situations J and several others after... NFHS definitely considers the appeal of a missed base to which the runner was forced to be a force out, even after the fact.

I was just needling Chap for not identifying it.