appeal or force out

[steveshane67]

on a missed base, at what pt in time does it turn from a force out to an appeal play.

if R1 & R3, 2 outs, GB to RF, R1 goes 1st to 3rd but misses 2nd, after the play the defense appeals to 2nd, gets the out, but the run still scores is one end of the spectrum. the other end would be a routine grounder to SS who flips to 2B for the force out, run does not score.

now what happens on a play, R1 & R3 2 outs, GB to SS, R1 slides into 2nd but never touches 2nd when he slides, then the throw is caught by the 2B, from the SS, is that still a force out?

or R1 & R2, 2 outs, liner to RF, R1 only gets maybe 1 step past 2nd, but steps over the base, RF throws behind the runner, right to the SS, who is standing on the base, is this an appeal play, or a force out?

thanks

[johnnyg08]

appeal plays. missed bases are considered touched for the purpose of removing a force out...there are a few things that can restore a force...which i'm sure will be covered in this thread by others.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

on a missed base, at what pt in time does it turn from a force out to an appeal play.

if R1 & R3, 2 outs, GB to RF, R1 goes 1st to 3rd but misses 2nd, after the play the defense appeals to 2nd, gets the out, but the run still scores is one end of the spectrum. the other end would be a routine grounder to SS who flips to 2B for the force out, run does not score.

now what happens on a play, R1 & R3 2 outs, GB to SS, R1 slides into 2nd but never touches 2nd when he slides, then the throw is caught by the 2B, from the SS, is that still a force out?

or R1 & R2, 2 outs, liner to RF, R1 only gets maybe 1 step past 2nd, but steps over the base, RF throws behind the runner, right to the SS, who is standing on the base, is this an appeal play, or a force out?

thanks

In situation one, R1 attained 2B when he passed 2B. This would be an appeal and an advantagous fourth out. If properly appealed and R1 is called out on appeal, R3's run would not score as a forced runner failed to safely advance.

In situation two, your OP doesn't say if R1's slide stopped short of 2B or slid past 2B. If R1 slid past 2B, the runner would need to be tagged to be put out, simply tagging 2B would not retire the runner. If R1's slide was short of 2B, either tagging the runner or 2B would retire R1.

In situation three, did F9 catch the liner or was it a outfield hit? If it was an outfield hit and R1 went past 2B, it is the same as your situation one if R2 scored.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

on a missed base, at what pt in time does it turn from a force out to an appeal play.

Your question is confused. It's like asking, "at what point in time does a fly ball turn from a catch to a sacrifice?" The answer is: it can be both.

A missed base appeal will be granted whenever a baserunner has failed to touch a base and the defense executes a properly formed appeal.

A force play at a base occurs when a runner is forced to advance to that base by the batter becoming a runner.

So a runner can be forced to advance to a base that he fails to touch. The appeal of that missed base is then both an appeal play and a force play.

In your first play, if R1 is called out on appeal for missing 2B, then R3's run does NOT score. R1 was forced to advance to 2B, so the appeal constitutes a force play.

Compare: R1, R3, two outs. Batter doubles to the RF corner, and both runners score. But R1 misses 3B. The defense appeals, and R1 is called out to end the inning. Does R3's run score?

RULING: Yes. The missed base appeal at 3B was not a force play, since R1 was not forced to advance to 3B. Thus it's a time play: since the out was recorded after R3 crossed the plate, score the run.

[jicecone]

"on a missed base, at what pt in time does it turn from a force out to an appeal play"


OBR 2.0 "A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner." If a runner, (that is forced) is either tagged or the base is contacted by a fielder in possession of the ball, before obtaining contact with the next base, you have a "Forced out".

OBR 2.00 "An APPEAL is the act of a fielder in claiming violation of the rules by the offensive team." In this case a missed base.

The force out can ONLY be removed by tagging or putting the following runner out (the runner or runners behind the forced runner) before the forced runner.

In other words, an appeal has nothing to do with a forced out however, a forced out definitely can have a bearing on the results of an appeal.

[greymule]

Keep in mind that after a runner misses a base to which he is forced, the force is not removed by the putout of a following runner.

R1, R3, one out. Batter hits safely down the RF line. R3 scores, R1 misses 2B and makes it to 3B. BR is thrown out at 2B trying for a double. The defense then successfully appeals R1's miss of 2B. This third out is still a force play, and R3's run would not count.

On the other hand: R1, R3, one out. BR grounds to F3, who steps on 1B to retire the BR and then throws wild to 2B in an attempt to get R1. R1 misses 2B and makes it to 3B while R3 scores. The defense successfully appeals R1's miss of 2B. This third out is not a force out, and R3's run counts.

I'm sure most posters know this, but given the original questions, I thought these examples might be useful.

[johnnyg08]

These are great examples and definitely the finer points of the rule.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

on a missed base, at what pt in time does it turn from a force out to an appeal play.

This in and by itself is up to discussion and debate depending upon which KNOWN authority you subscribe to.

Example:

R1/R3 2 outs - Ground ball DEEP in the hole between F5/F6. F6 makes a good play and throws to F4 trying to get R1 for the force out. R1 beats the play but misses second base. He subsequently scrambles back to the bag where he is tagged out. R3 of coarse already scored.

The question - can the defense appeal R1's miss of second base for the advantageous 4th out appeal to cancel R3's run.

According to Roder - NO because the action was UN-RELAXED at the time. In other words no different then if R1 actually touched second base but then came off the bag and was tagged.

If memory serves I believe (will have to check) PBUC says the defense can get the advantageous 4th out appeal on the play I presented.

Not sure if that is what you meant in your OP or not.

Pete Booth

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by greymule

Keep in mind that after a runner misses a base to which he is forced, the force is not removed by the putout of a following runner..

Great point, Greymule.