NFHS "ball four" mechanic

[Tru_in_Blu]

I worked with a partner yesterday who was PU.

About a dozen times, when a player received a base on balls, he removed his mask with his right hand, took a step back towards the right-handed batter's box, and then pointed with his left hand (with an open hand vs a finger) towards first base. He was very deliberate and calculated in doing this.

We discussed this after the game. He said he had been evaluated the previous week and was dinged for not doing this in his game. He knew this wasn't the proper mechanic but when he questioned the evaluator about it, he was threatened with a further deduction for not being receptive to the evaluator's inputs. (Intimidating behavior by our leadership team, that's just what we need. The beatings will continue until morale improves!)

We further discussed that a signal to first base is appropriate when there is a HBP and after the dead ball call a point and award of first base. He knew this as well.

So today, I've been looking in both my NFHS Umpires Manual and Rules Book and cannot locate a reference for either situation. I thought perhaps the evaluator simply mixed them up, but I can't find either one.

The NFHS documentation is so weak in so many areas. While looking for the above, I came across Page 21, The Pitch, No. 9. There are times when the count should be given by the plate umpire.

But there's no clue as to what "times" those might be. I've always used the criteria when the next pitch could change the batter's status, i.e. after either ball 3 or strike 2; or, after some type of delay.

I see so many guys giving the count of 1-1 or 2-0 or 2-1. I'm trying to be less OCD lately, but it's still a minor annoyance to me.

So anyhoos, does anyone have a reference for the not pointing on a base on balls and/or a definite point on a HBP?

Thanx.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I worked with a partner yesterday who was PU.

About a dozen times, when a player received a base on balls, he removed his mask with his right hand, took a step back towards the right-handed batter's box, and then pointed with his left hand (with an open hand vs a finger) towards first base. He was very deliberate and calculated in doing this.

We discussed this after the game. He said he had been evaluated the previous week and was dinged for not doing this in his game. He knew this wasn't the proper mechanic but when he questioned the evaluator about it, he was threatened with a further deduction for not being receptive to the evaluator's inputs. (Intimidating behavior by our leadership team, that's just what we need. The beatings will continue until morale improves!)

We further discussed that a signal to first base is appropriate when there is a HBP and after the dead ball call a point and award of first base. He knew this as well.

So today, I've been looking in both my NFHS Umpires Manual and Rules Book and cannot locate a reference for either situation. I thought perhaps the evaluator simply mixed them up, but I can't find either one.

The NFHS documentation is so weak in so many areas. While looking for the above, I came across Page 21, The Pitch, No. 9. There are times when the count should be given by the plate umpire.

But there's no clue as to what "times" those might be. I've always used the criteria when the next pitch could change the batter's status, i.e. after either ball 3 or strike 2; or, after some type of delay.

I see so many guys giving the count of 1-1 or 2-0 or 2-1. I'm trying to be less OCD lately, but it's still a minor annoyance to me.

So anyhoos, does anyone have a reference for the not pointing on a base on balls and/or a definite point on a HBP?

Thanx.

You have to point and award 1B on ball 4 in both softball and baseball. The players don't know they are entitled to 1B on a walk and you have to make sure they go in the direction of 1B instead of 3B.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I worked with a partner yesterday who was PU.

About a dozen times, when a player received a base on balls, he removed his mask with his right hand, took a step back towards the right-handed batter's box, and then pointed with his left hand (with an open hand vs a finger) towards first base. He was very deliberate and calculated in doing this.

We discussed this after the game. He said he had been evaluated the previous week and was dinged for not doing this in his game. He knew this wasn't the proper mechanic but when he questioned the evaluator about it, he was threatened with a further deduction for not being receptive to the evaluator's inputs. (Intimidating behavior by our leadership team, that's just what we need. The beatings will continue until morale improves!)

We further discussed that a signal to first base is appropriate when there is a HBP and after the dead ball call a point and award of first base. He knew this as well.

So today, I've been looking in both my NFHS Umpires Manual and Rules Book and cannot locate a reference for either situation. I thought perhaps the evaluator simply mixed them up, but I can't find either one.

The NFHS documentation is so weak in so many areas. While looking for the above, I came across Page 21, The Pitch, No. 9. There are times when the count should be given by the plate umpire.

But there's no clue as to what "times" those might be. I've always used the criteria when the next pitch could change the batter's status, i.e. after either ball 3 or strike 2; or, after some type of delay.

I see so many guys giving the count of 1-1 or 2-0 or 2-1. I'm trying to be less OCD lately, but it's still a minor annoyance to me.

So anyhoos, does anyone have a reference for the not pointing on a base on balls and/or a definite point on a HBP?

Thanx.

Not aware of any rule set which even suggests an umpire point toward an awarded base at any time.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

So anyhoos, does anyone have a reference for the not pointing on a base on balls and/or a definite point on a HBP?

Thanx.

Why point on either? When I evaluate, if someone points on either, I will give them a very deserved chide "do you think the batter was going to third?".

None of the three mechanics mechanics manuals that I own (ASA, NFHS, NCAA) even suggest pointing to first for either a walk of HBP.

The point may be misconstrued for a "Did she go?" question if the umpire is on the line.

[Dakota]

As to the count, this is just what I do.

General case:
I give the first count for a batter after 3 pitches, 2-1. 1-2, or 3-0
I give the count the first time there may be a change of status on the next pitch (3-x or x-2)
I give the count every 2 pitches after that

Special cases:
I will give a 1-1 count in a bunt situation where there may be a question in the coach's or batter's mind whether the count is 1-1 or 0-2
I will give the count after a long delay
I will signal the count (no verbal unless I was otherwise giving the count anyway) to my partner after a steal attempt

[charliej47]

In the class I was in we were taught to point to the ground on a dropped third strike, point to the spot where the batter was hit and to point fair or foul on close balls down the line.

I was taught many many years ago that if you point with your right hand, then you are signaling an out of a strike.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Not aware of any rule set which even suggests an umpire point toward an awarded base at any time.

For better or worse, on a HBP that needs selling, I will point to 1B (if I am awarding) or the batter's box (if the batter is staying at bat). I don't point for walks. I say "Ball Four."

I will point at a foot that is pulled, or a foot that was off the bag but made it in time for the force. I will point at the front end of a double play when I don't think I will have time to hammer properly and turn to 1B, or on a brush tag, or a check swing strike...you get my "point". I don't point at anything routine, ever, nor do I point at coaches, even when they are getting ejected.

An old-timer who was one of my earliest mentors called the point our "six-shooter". He liked to remind us that after a half-dozen uses, it loses most of its effectiveness. When in doubt, keep it holstered. It may not be a book mechanic, but it is an effective timing and selling tool. With that in mind, I have not yet been given feedback from an evaluator that I point too often.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by Dakota

As to the count, this is just what I do.

General case:
I give the first count for a batter after 3 pitches, 2-1. 1-2, or 3-0

[SNIP]

I never give the count on 2-1, except after a delay. The next pitch (if taken) will bring the count to an action count, and I don't like giving the count on back-to-back pitches. If play is slow, or the players are young, I may say "2-1, ladies" in a voice loud enough for the batter and catcher to hear.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by teebob21

I never give the count on 2-1, except after a delay. The next pitch (if taken) will bring the count to an action count, and I don't like giving the count on back-to-back pitches. If play is slow, or the players are young, I may say "2-1, ladies" in a voice loud enough for the batter and catcher to hear.

Always after the 3rd pitch and anytime the batter's status can change

[ASA/NYSSOBLUE]

Originally Posted by teebob21

I never give the count on 2-1, except after a delay. The next pitch (if taken) will bring the count to an action count, and I don't like giving the count on back-to-back pitches. If play is slow, or the players are young, I may say "2-1, ladies" in a voice loud enough for the batter and catcher to hear.

Exactly - except I almost always will tell batter/catcher the 2-1 VERY conversationally - they're going to ask anyways!

Another thing is that with a two strike count, and the batter starts fouling them off, no to continuously scream out the count. Same thing if a 0-2 goes to 1-2. 2-2....just quickly shoot the hands up and 1/4 volume with the count. Then when you go to 3-2, it makes it that much more convincing/important when you raise the volume to max for the 'three balls/two strikes' announcement.

For ball four around here, we have gotten to teaching the HP and 1B umpires to watch the runner down to 1B. HP takes off the mask, and goes around to watch down the line, 1B takes two-three steps in to watch him/her coming up.

[chapmaja]

I have always been instructed to indicate ball 4 verbally if the batter doesn't react, then take the mask off and watcher her down the line to first base, unless there is other action requiring your attention (such as a runner coming home on a passed ball/WP for ball 4).

This does bring up an interesting situation.

R1 on 3rd, B2 has a 3-2 count. Pitch is a wild pitch over the catchers head for ball 4. The batter turns throws the bat toward her dugout, and starts going to first base at the same time the pitcher is covering the plate for R1 coming home. R1, B2, F1 and the throw all reach the plate about the same time. What do you have?

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I have always been instructed to indicate ball 4 verbally if the batter doesn't react, then take the mask off and watcher her down the line to first base, unless there is other action requiring your attention (such as a runner coming home on a passed ball/WP for ball 4).

This does bring up an interesting situation.

R1 on 3rd, B2 has a 3-2 count. Pitch is a wild pitch over the catchers head for ball 4. The batter turns throws the bat toward her dugout, and starts going to first base at the same time the pitcher is covering the plate for R1 coming home. R1, B2, F1 and the throw all reach the plate about the same time. What do you have?

Just do what's fair.

[CecilOne]

Count - second strike, third ball, after a delay, when I perceive confusion, when asked (minimal me aspect in game).
Used to after third pitch, especially slow pitch, but if not strike 2 or ball 3, count is 2 and 1

Ball four - "ball", mask in left hand facing BR & 1st base, pause, "ball four" if no reaction, watch any 3rd base runner.
HBP - "dead ball", if not obvious - point & announce "hit batter"; check runners, then same as ball four

Never point to 1st or give instructions.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Count - second strike, third ball, after a delay, when I perceive confusion, when asked (minimal me aspect in game).
Used to after third pitch, especially slow pitch, but if not strike 2 or ball 3, count is 2 and 1

Ball four - "ball", mask in left hand facing BR & 1st base, pause, "ball four" if no reaction, watch any 3rd base runner.
HBP - "dead ball", if not obvious - point & announce "hit batter"; check runners, then same as ball four

Never point to 1st or give instructions.

The problem with that (old and never revised) instruction is that the game has changed with rules related to HBP that require different judgment. Used to be the only judgments were 1) hit or not, and 2) sufficient attempt to avoid or not?

Now we have to judge if the ball was completely in the batters box (where no attempt to avoid is necessary), or only partially in the batters box (where failure to attempt to avoid still applies). So batters and coaches can legitimately not know if they are awarded first base or not.

Sure, the smarter ones hop up and go to first and make you call them back. But this is an NFHS thread, and there generally aren't all that many smarter players.

I believe the better mechanic (on HBP only) is to point and award first base when appropriate, or immediately after declaring dead ball state "stay here" when not awarding first base; that makes it clear that you are making an affirmative judgment and what your judgment is, without leaving it appear like the coach needs to come out and prompt you to consider the alternate possibility.

It just isn't in the NFHS manual (has that been updated in decades??), like the NCAA updated when their rule changed. Just my opinion, no correction as to the manual direction.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

The problem with that (old and never revised) instruction is that the game has changed with rules related to HBP that require different judgment. Used to be the only judgments were 1) hit or not, and 2) sufficient attempt to avoid or not?

Now we have to judge if the ball was completely in the batters box (where no attempt to avoid is necessary), or only partially in the batters box (where failure to attempt to avoid still applies). So batters and coaches can legitimately not know if they are awarded first base or not.

Sure, the smarter ones hop up and go to first and make you call them back. But this is an NFHS thread, and there generally aren't all that many smarter players.

I believe the better mechanic (on HBP only) is to point and award first base when appropriate, or immediately after declaring dead ball state "stay here" when not awarding first base; that makes it clear that you are making an affirmative judgment and what your judgment is, without leaving it appear like the coach needs to come out and prompt you to consider the alternate possibility.

It just isn't in the NFHS manual (has that been updated in decades??), like the NCAA updated when their rule changed. Just my opinion, no correction as to the manual direction.

Yes, I over simplified and ignored the "stay here" possibility.
I still wouldn't point, just "first base" or "you get first base" to the BR.