runner passing preceding runner

[Tru_in_Blu]

This question came up at a clinic today.

The situation was in an NFHS game.

Two outs, fast runner on first base. B4 hits a gapper that rolls a ways because there is no fence. R1, after rounding second is involved in a collision with F6 and R1 goes down hurt. B4, continuing to run, passes R1 and heads to third. The relay from the outfield is bobbled and B4 continues on to home. An infielder gathers the ball, runs over and tags R1 who is still laying on the ground.

At this point, the umpires called a dead ball, and got together to discuss what they had.

They allowed B4 to score and awarded R1 home. At first there was some possibility that R1 would have to be carried off the field. The umpires told the coach that a substitute would be allowed to come in and run the awarded bases for the injured player. Ultimately, the injured R1 did manage to get up and touched 3rd and home to score the second run.

Checking NFHS 8-6, A runner is out when:
Art. 4 The runner physically passes a preceding runner before that runner has been put out. If this was the third out of the inning, any runs scoring prior to the out for passing a preceding runner would count. A runner(s) passing a preceding obstructed runner, as in 8-4-3b Penalty c, is not out.

Is there any requirement for the runners to score in sequence? I.E. would the subsequent runner (B4) be required to retreat their steps home, to third, to second, and then wait for R1 to touch her awarded bases? What if B4 had entered the dugout/DBT? Assuming there were no missed bases, could there be an appeal anywhere?

Looking at the ASA rule, there does not appear to be such an exception.

Thanx.

[CecilOne]

It seems that if " A runner(s) passing a preceding obstructed runner, as in 8-4-3b Penalty c, is not out" applies, the sequence does not matter. R1 is awarded home as of the moment of the OBS.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

R1 is awarded home as of the moment of the OBS.

Well, not exactly. OBS is a delayed dead-ball and awards are made at the conclusion of playing action or when the obstructed runner is tagged while off a base. Yes?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Well, not exactly. OBS is a delayed dead-ball and awards are made at the conclusion of playing action or when the obstructed runner is tagged while off a base. Yes?

Right, I meant the determination by the umpire and the "right" to the awarded base existing as soon as the OBS occurs; assuming no overriding factors.

[teebob21]

There is a case play for this scenario in the 2016 Fed casebook: 8.6.4e, page 64. The approved ruling is to award the potentially-injured player the base she would have achieved without obstruction (home), and she scores. I do not believe the order in which the runners score matters in this case, as R1 was obstructed and can legally be passed by other runners including the BR.

There is no comment regarding awarded bases that I could find in the Fed rule book other than that they must be "ran legally". Common sense applies here. When a batter is hit in the head with a pitch, and is woozy, do we make her run to 1B for the awarded base before allowing a substitute?

[Tru_in_Blu]

Good timing on the case book play. I don't have my 2016 books yet but will look that one up once I get them.

Thanx.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Well, not exactly. OBS is a delayed dead-ball and awards are made at the conclusion of playing action or when the obstructed runner is tagged while off a base. Yes?

Well, not exactly.

The award is determined at the time of the infraction. They are announced and applied at the end of action. So I guess it depends on what you meant by "made".

[MD Longhorn]

Corrolary question for the peanut gallery. Say it's 2 outs and 3-2 count, runner from 1st alertly steals full blast on the pitch, but runner from 2nd doesn't move. Say Runner from 2nd is a tank, horrendously slow, with two kneebraces. You are positive she would only have achieved 3rd (at best) when she is obstructed. Then after you determine this, the runner from 1st legally scores during play.

Where do you place runners, without lying and deciding after the fact that the runner from 2nd would have scored.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Corrolary question for the peanut gallery. Say it's 2 outs and 3-2 count, runner from 1st alertly steals full blast on the pitch, but runner from 2nd doesn't move. Say Runner from 2nd is a tank, horrendously slow, with two kneebraces. You are positive she would only have achieved 3rd (at best) when she is obstructed. Then after you determine this, the runner from 1st legally scores during play.

Where do you place runners, without lying and deciding after the fact that the runner from 2nd would have scored.

I have no idea how to handle this by the book. So here's what I'd make up on the field. All runners affected by obstruction are awarded the bases they would have reached if not for the obstruction. I'm giving the runner who had to go around her home and since I'm doing that I'm bringing the runner on 3rd home to score since she is forced by the award.

I think you'd have to do the same thing if you have a slow runner on first tripped up on the way to second and the rabbit like BR stretches it into a triple.

[Tru_in_Blu]

I was wondering about that also.

I know if an obstructed runner is awarded a base on which another runner already occupies, that runner would be "pushed" or forced to advance because of the award.

Now in the absence of OBS, and assuming REALLY knowledgeable players who know their teammates very well, I'd have to believe that subsequent runners wouldn't be running up their slow teammate's back, much less passing her.

So if a runner can score after a succeeding runner (or 2) has already scored (when there is OBS), I think logic states that you can keep the (slow) obstructed runner at third. If that's the base you thought she'd get without OBS, that's the award.

[MD Longhorn]

The book says that at the end of play, you place ALL runners at the bases they would have achieved absent the obstruction. Knowing I likely will have to eject home team manager, I think the only ruling supported by the book is putting R1 on third, and UNSCORING the runner from first, putting her on 2nd (and BR on 1st).

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

The book says that at the end of play, you place ALL runners at the bases they would have achieved absent the obstruction. Knowing I likely will have to eject home team manager, I think the only ruling supported by the book is putting R1 on third, and UNSCORING the runner from first, putting her on 2nd (and BR on 1st).

I think you are saying that w/o the OBS, R1 would have 3rd; and both trailing runners would be stuck behind R1. So even though R2 passing R1 is not an out; that is immaterial to the bases awards.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I think you are saying that w/o the OBS, R1 would have 3rd; and both trailing runners would be stuck behind R1. So even though R2 passing R1 is not an out; that is immaterial to the bases awards.

Well, I guess that's the question. If other runners are permitted to pass an injured/OBS runner without penalty and they score during a DDB they are legally running the bases, right? If they ran the bases legally and scored, why send them back?

Maybe it's a loophole of sorts. OBS runner can push a runner forward. But can they hold up other runners? Even to the point of returning runners who have scored back to the bases?

Interesting conundrum.

[AtlUmpSteve]

It has been my understanding that the process of the award is to (first) award the obstructed runner the base that runner would have reached, and (then) all other runners affected. This mindset more correctly represents the likely outcome of your posted play had there not been obstruction, as following runners clearly could not have safely passed an unobstructed preceding runner.

The part of the rule allowing the obstructed runner to "push" a preceding runner was added to the rule and (then) POE to more fully enable the process of deciding what base award should apply at the time of the obstruction, and to NOT let subsequent play change that award. If the preceding runner stumbled, or returned to touch a missed base; well that is as much a part of subsequent play unrelated to the original obstruction and intended award as the outfielder missing the cutoff, or the cutoff bobbling the throw, or the cutoff making an errant throw which results in the obstructed runner overrunning the award.

A little wordy, I guess, but hope it makes the point clearer (as related to me by HP ~20 years ago).

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

This question came up at a clinic today.

The situation was in an NFHS game.

Two outs, fast runner on first base. B4 hits a gapper that rolls a ways because there is no fence. R1, after rounding second is involved in a collision with F6 and R1 goes down hurt. B4, continuing to run, passes R1 and heads to third. The relay from the outfield is bobbled and B4 continues on to home. An infielder gathers the ball, runs over and tags R1 who is still laying on the ground.

At this point, the umpires called a dead ball, and got together to discuss what they had.

They allowed B4 to score and awarded R1 home. At first there was some possibility that R1 would have to be carried off the field. The umpires told the coach that a substitute would be allowed to come in and run the awarded bases for the injured player. Ultimately, the injured R1 did manage to get up and touched 3rd and home to score the second run.

Checking NFHS 8-6, A runner is out when:
Art. 4 The runner physically passes a preceding runner before that runner has been put out. If this was the third out of the inning, any runs scoring prior to the out for passing a preceding runner would count. A runner(s) passing a preceding obstructed runner, as in 8-4-3b Penalty c, is not out.

Is there any requirement for the runners to score in sequence? I.E. would the subsequent runner (B4) be required to retreat their steps home, to third, to second, and then wait for R1 to touch her awarded bases? What if B4 had entered the dugout/DBT? Assuming there were no missed bases, could there be an appeal anywhere?

Looking at the ASA rule, there does not appear to be such an exception.

Thanx.

My opinion on this play is that, given the description of the play, all of the runners are getting home one way or another. The only way, I am not awarding home to the obstructed runner is if she is SO SLOW that a snail would beat her around the bases. Given the way this play is described, I find it very difficult to think that the runner who was obstructed would not have made it home absent the obstruction.

I would award the obstructed runner home and the batter run, who legally made it home, would retain that position at home.