passing a runner

[greymule]

Regarding a runner passing another runner, can anyone resolve an apparent contradiction between the ASA 2002 rule book and the 2001 casebook?

Rule 8-8D says, "[The runner is out] when a runner physically passes a preceding runner before that runner has been put out. If this was the third out of the inning, any runs scoring prior to the out for passing a preceding runner would count." Then "Effect: The ball is in play and the runner is out." Note that it says, "The ball is in play."

POE #37 apparently reinforces this live-ball stipulation: "Passing a runner occurs during a live ball. It can occur while runners are advancing or returning to a base. . . ." It goes on to give a common example.

However, in the casebook, play 8.8-15 reads as follows: R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B with two outs. Batter B4 hits the ball over the fence for a home run. R1 and R2 score, however, [sic] R3 misses 3B and when returning to touch it, B4 passes R3. RULING: Two runs score (R1 and R2). Even though the ball is dead, B4 cannot pass R3. This is a 'time' play and two runs score." Then it gives the obvious exceptions: Super, etc.

So the rule implies live ball, the POE explicitly states live ball, and casebook says even though the ball is dead.

The following play happened to me a couple a years ago:

R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, one out. B3 hit a line drive down the LF line. R1, a big heavy slugger who might have figured he wouldn't be able to score if the ball was caught, ran a few steps down the line toward home. R2 tagged up at 2B. F7 made a backhand catch and then fired a powerful low throw that, from his position on the line, could have been to either 3B or home. R1 ran back to 3B and then wrapped his head in his arms to protect himself from the throw, which shot past him, skipped in front of the catcher, and bounced into the stands. As R1 crouched on third still guarding his head, R2 jubilantly sprinted around third, passing R1.

I called R2 out for passing R1 and, since that was the third out of the inning, no runs scored. The coach of the offense argued that since the runners were awarded bases and the ball was dead, the fact that one passed another was irrelevant. (Then he admitted he had no idea but was just trying to get a call.) One interpreter told me the same thing, but he's been wrong on many other occasions. At a clinic, another interpreter (state official) told me that the ball has to be live, that if, for example, a batter hit a high blast and then passed the runner on first before the ball hit the ground, he'd be out, but not if the ball first hit the ground over the fence. But it seems to me that even when bases are awarded on an overthrow, the runners still have to run the bases properly.

In OBR and Fed, you're out if you pass a preceding runner, live ball or dead. What's the rule in ASA?

[Steve M]

Other than those slow pitch gorilla divisions that do not require the runners to run on homeruns, a runner must always run & touch the bases legally. So, in ASA, a runner is out - live ball or dead ball - for passing a preceding runner. Mike may be aware of a formal position on this, but I am not aware of any. And, as always, am willing to stand corrected. As an example, ASA does require a runner who missed a base to return to touch the base when a ball has gone out of play or risk being called out on appeal for missing the base.

[oppool]

I believe a ball hit over the fence for a home-run is still a live ball tell all runners have finished there running responibilities that is why a runner can be called out on passing unlike where if a ball bounces or goes under the fence these are dead ball situation and I believe as POE 37 states a runner can only be called out for passing when the ball is alive. If the ball is dead I believe it just like a runner going into the dugout in a dead ball situation you bring the runner back out and put her on base and a dead ball situation and a runner passes I believe you just make sure they go to the right base before putting the ball back into play

JMHO

Don

[oppool]

I stand corrected because as you stated CB8.8-15 clearly states "Even though the ball is dead" on the homerun


Don

[IRISHMAFIA]

Okay, here we go!!!

Speaking ASA.

Rule 8.8.D The runner is out..."when the runner physically passes a preceding runner before that runner has been put out."

Note, it says a PRECEDING runner! Therefore, the person called out is the former trail runner. There is no caveat requiring the ball to be dead. The POE does indeed mention a live ball, but I believe this is for the purpose of demonstrating what occurs, the runner is out and the ball remains live.

In the 2001 ASA Umpire Clinic Guide, there is no mention of the ball's status concerning this rule.

[greymule]

It appears that the same principle applies with a runner being called out for receiving a "physical assist." Rule 8-8D says, "[The runner is out] when anyone other than another runner physically assists the runner while the ball is in play." Note the last six words. And the effect is the same: "The ball is in play and the runner is out."

Then the casebook (8.8-49) gives this play: The batter hits a home run over the fence. His teammates shake his hand and pat him on the back between 3B and home. The umpire declares the batter out for being aided by a teammate. RULING: The batter should not have been called out unless the contact is considered to have assisted the runner.

The implication is that he should be called out if he actually is assisted. Frankly, I can't imagine making that call. The intent of the rule was to prevent coaches from gaining an unfair advantage by shoving runners toward a base or picking them up when they fell. Imagine that a guy hits a ball over the fence and then trips over third. The coach catches him in his fall, so the ump calls him out. What advantage did the assist provide? He was going to score anyway, even if he had to crawl home. This falls under the category of rules I'll never enforce.

And I admit it's ridiculous, but the way the rule is written—"anyone other than another runner"—B1 hits the ball over the fence and trips over second, F6 (certainly not another runner!) extends his hand to him, B1 grabs the hand and pulls himself up. Now I call B1 out because someone other than another runner gave him a physical assist?

Perhaps better wording for both passing a runner and physical assist would be something like "Such violation does not make a live ball dead."

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule

The implication is that he should be called out if he actually is assisted.
Frankly, I can't imagine making that call. The intent of the rule was to
prevent coaches from gaining an unfair advantage by shoving runners toward a
base or picking them up when they fell. Imagine that a guy hits a ball over
the fence and then trips over third. The coach catches him in his fall, so
the ump calls him out. What advantage did the assist provide? He was going
to score anyway, even if he had to crawl home. This falls under the category
of rules I'll never enforce.

Actually, it isn't catching the runner that is in violation of the rule. It is physically providing the runner with direction that qualifies as the "assist". It is not unheard of for a runner to catch his high-fives and
walk directly to the dugout without touching the plate. I've seen it quite a few times. I've also seen runners go wide and crush their coach. Despite the screaming from the opponent, that is not assisting the runner unless the
coach physically pushes the runner toward a base to avoid being put out.

Yes, I know that is not the same as a dead ball scenario, but you got to remember that Moose probably just hit his first homer in, oh, let's say 5 at bats, and he is in total awe of himself as he expects everyone else to be.
His priority is to be the subject of everyone's admiration, not touch the plate. I'm not going to rule a player out for high-fives, low fives, forarm
crunches or slam dancing on his way to the plate. However, if he begins to stray from the proper direction and a teammate grabs him and pushes him toward the plate, Moose is going to have to give back all those high-fives
because I am calling him out.

The first reason is because it is the rule and that's what the money is for. Second, though someone may think it is ridiculous, I doubt the opposition would appreciate that I have preempted their right to appeal had Moose not
received help. For those of you who do not work SP, some catchers are quite good at conning a runner into missing home plate. Finally, if Moose still isn't smart enough to figure out 1, 2, 3 and than touch the plate, does he really deserve the home run and the accompanying adoration?