goalie interferance

[JAB63]

BALL IS BEING CLEARED BY DEFENCE GOALIE WITH ONE FOOT IN THE CREASE AND REST OF BODY AND STICK OUT OF CREASE CALL FOR THE PASS. DEFENDER PASSES TO GOALIE ATTACK PLAYER CHECKS GOALIES STICK BEFORE HE HAS POSESION OF THE BALL. THATS A LEGAL CHECK RIGHT?

[RILAX]

if the ball is within 5 yards sure.

[CoachRob]

Rule 4-19.3: The crosse of the GK, NOT his body, when extended outside the cylinder above the crease area, is subject to being checked under the same circumstances as the crosse of any other player, except when the ball is in the crosse.

If you hit the GK's crosse when he has the ball, you call play-on (for GK interference), and award the ball at center "X" if the GK's team fails to clear the ball (please see case 4-19.D). No penalty time is to be served by the offending player.

If it's a loose ball in the crease, and the attacker hits the crosse, play on, or award the ball LATERAL to the goal area to the defensive team (please see 4.19-F)

The difference is possession. If the GK, body in the crease, has possession with his crosse INSIDE or OUTSIDE the crease, award it at center X (after a play on). If it is a loose ball INSIDE the crease, award it lateral to the goal area. If it's loose OUTSIDE the crease, the GK's crosse is fair game as noted in 4-19.3 above. You get extra yardage for being in possession at the time of the goalkeeper interference.

[LaxRef]

Here's one: goalie A1 has the ball in his possession inside the crease, and B1 commits a crease violation. Ruling?

[CoachRob]

Rule 6-2.3 states GK interference when he has the ball is a play on. Cases 6-2 E and 6-2 I are closest to this scenario. I assume a crease violation, being less severe than GK interference, is a similar situation.

Therefore, I would rule a play on. It is essentially the ONLY time a play on is called when the offended team is in possession. All other times, during possession it is a flag down/slow whistle situation.

If the GK fails to run the ball out of the crease or fails to complete an outlet pass, give the ball to GK's team at center X.

[LaxRef]

Originally posted by CoachRob
Rule 6-2.3 states GK interference when he has the ball is a play on. Cases 6-2 E and 6-2 I are closest to this scenario. I assume a crease violation, being less severe than GK interference, is a similar situation.

Therefore, I would rule a play on. It is essentially the ONLY time a play on is called when the offended team is in possession. All other times, during possession it is a flag down/slow whistle situation.

If the GK fails to run the ball out of the crease or fails to complete an outlet pass, give the ball to GK's team at center X.

The rules say if there's a crease violation with possession outside the crease, it's a flag down. If there's a crease violation with no possession, it's a play-on and possession at the spot or 20 yards laterally from the goal.

But it doesn't say where to put the ball in play if there's a crease violation with possession inside the crease (though it does say it's a play-on). I agree that a free clear makes sense since the clearing team already has possession, but the rules don't say that.

I've submitted this point to the NCAA rules committee.

[RILAX]

It is just a play-on. If the player with the ball fails to compleate a pass or run out of the crease it is just awarded 20-yards lat like any other play on.

[CoachRob]

LaxRef wrote:
The rules say if there's a crease violation with possession outside the crease, it's a flag down.

See case 6.2 D: B1 has possession outside the crease and starts to clear the ball up the field. Attacker A1 runs through the crease while chasing B1. RULING: Flag down, slow whistle, technical foul. This cannot be a play-on since ball is not loose. Flag down allows the clearing team to complete a fast break.

This is supported by Rule 6-2.2: Any crease violation by an attacking player while the ball is in possession of the defensive team OUTSIDE the crease shall result in a flag down, slow whistle. (Note how a play-on is ONLY during a loose ball, with the only exceptions being (1) GK interference or (2) crease violation [each while the GK is in possession].). Rule 6-2.2 does NOT specify where the restart would be should the clear fail after a crease violation.

LaxRef wrote:
If there's a crease violation with no possession, it's a play-on and possession at the spot or 20 yards laterally from the goal.

See case 6.2 H: While ball is loose in crease, A2 interferes with the GK. RULING: Play-on. If GK fails to gain possession of the ball, ball is awarded to team B 20 yards lateral to the goal.

LaxRef wrote:
But it doesn't say where to put the ball in play if there's a crease violation with possession inside the crease (though it does say it's a play-on).

I agree. Rule 6-2.2 states: ...Any crease violation by an attacking player while the ball is in the crease shall result in a play-on. There is no case regarding the restart, nor is it detailed in the rules, nor do they differentiate between possession and loose ball goal crease violation restarts.

However, I have to believe crease violations follow the same format as GK interference:

GK interference while in the crease:
Loose ball: Play-on, or award ball lateral to goal.
GK possession: Play-on, or award ball at midfield.

Apply same logic to crease violation while GK is in the crease:
Loose ball: Flag down, or award ball lateral to goal.
GK possession: Flag down, or award ball at midfield.

MY QUESTION for the NCAA is what to do about crease violations while a DEFENDER, not a GK, is in the crease. Rule 6-2 deals with "GK this, GK that". How about if a defender is covering for a GK serving a foul, or is covering the crease while the GK is out of position? Then what? If they could make a list as I have done above, it would be helpful. (I understand that GK interference/pvivileges only apply to the designated GK, and not to a player covering for the GK. A defender and his crosse can be stick checked while in the crease.)

[CoachRob]

I have to make an addendum to my response:

LaxRef wrote:
If there's a crease violation with no possession, it's a play-on and possession at the spot or 20 yards laterally from the goal.

I responded:
See case 6.2 H: While ball is loose in crease, A2 interferes with the GK. RULING: Play-on. If GK fails to gain possession of the ball, ball is awarded to team B 20 yards lateral to the goal.

While note LaxRef wrote about CREASE VIOLATION, the case I specified deals with GK INTERFERENCE.

I do NOT see anywhere in the rules or cases that agree with his first statement. I repeat:

Rule 6-2.2 states: " ...Any crease violation by an attacking player while the ball is in the crease shall result in a play-on." There is NO case regarding the restart, nor is it detailed in the rules, nor do they differentiate between possession and loose ball goal crease violation restarts.

So, I have to slightly disagree with LaxRef with his statement regarding crease violations. All the rules tell us is that a crease violation is a play-on. Nothing about restarts.

[LaxRef]

Originally posted by CoachRob
\
Apply same logic to crease violation while GK is in the crease:
Loose ball: Flag down, or award ball lateral to goal.
GK possession: Flag down, or award ball at midfield.[/B]

I'd like to apply the same logic, but there's the small matter that the rules ONLY specify a free clear for goalie interference with possession and for time-serving penalties with the ball in the defensive half of the field.

In other words, I think it SHOULD be a free clear, but I'm not convinced that it IS a free clear.

Originally posted by CoachRob
\MY QUESTION for the NCAA is what to do about crease violations while a DEFENDER, not a GK, is in the crease. Rule 6-2 deals with "GK this, GK that". How about if a defender is covering for a GK serving a foul, or is covering the crease while the GK is out of position? Then what? If they could make a list as I have done above, it would be helpful. (I understand that GK interference/pvivileges only apply to the designated GK, and not to a player covering for the GK. A defender and his crosse can be stick checked while in the crease.) [/B]

Well, if the defender is covering for a GK serving a foul, he needs to be properly equipped to be a GK and becomes the desgnated goalkeeper during that time. Thus, he has all of the priviliges of the GK at that time.

If it's a defender in the crease, as you say, interference doesn't apply, and he can't bat the ball with his hands. But WHO is in the crease has NO BEARING on the result of crease violations, so all of that stuff will be the same.

[CoachRob]

Rilax wrote in reference to a crease violation while the GK has possession:

It is just a play-on. If the player with the ball fails to complete a pass or run out of the crease it is just awarded 20-yards lateral like any other play on.

I don't think that is the case. I believe he is applying the rule for GK INTERFERENCE to CREASE VIOLATIONS:

Case 6-2 I: While the GK is in the crease and is in possession of the ball, A1 interferes with the GK. RULING: Play-on. If GK fails to run the ball out of the crease or successfully complete an outlet pass, the ball is awarded to team B at the center line.

(Note: This is basically an expanded form of Case 6-2E: A1 interferes with GK B1 who has possession of the ball in the crease. Is this a slow whistle or play on? RULING; Play-on.)

I know Rilax is a seasoned official, but I don't see where crease violation restarts are discussed, nor are posssession versus loose ball violations differentiated in the rules. To say it is just awarded 20-yards lateral like any other play on is incorrect, as 6-2 I indicates in the case of a play-on after GK interference (with the ball awarded at the center line).

I think overall this may be a "splitting of the hair" situation, however.

[Snake~eyes]

This has been debated before and I think you have to award the ball 20 yards laterall to the goal because there is no rule that says its an exception(freeclear). Even though I think it should be a free clear I don't think the rules really clarify that it is.

[CoachRob]

LaxRef,

I"m sorry for not being clear. I meant a defender standing in the goal crease but not acting as the designated goalkeeper (no throat or chest protector, and no GK crosse). If you can't get a backup GK ready in time, you have no choice but to put a defender in the crease (that happened to our team once).

We agree he gets no GK privileges, but crease violations still apply.

You stated: I'd like to apply the same logic, but there's the small matter that the rules ONLY specify a free clear for goalie interference with possession and for time-serving penalties with the ball in the defensive half of the field.

I'm not sure that is true. Rule 7-3, paragraph 2, sentence 1 dictates a free clear for a time-serving penalty in the defensive half, and Rule 6-2.3 gives a free clear for GK interference with possession. I do NOT see a SPECIFIC rule that states a free clear is to be given ONLY under those two situations.

There is a difference between making the statement "Only under these circumstances..." and finding two separate rules that apply the same penalty and concluding these to be the ONLY cases in which that particular penalty is applied. (Do you have a rule reference that states the word "ONLY"?)

For instance, it is one thing to say (1) John Jones is 6' 1", and (2) John Evans is 6' 1", versus saying "ONLY men named John are 6' 1" tall". I think that may be what you have done with the free clear situation.

I hope I sated that clearly. It's a bit tough to write exactly what you are thinking.

But we agree, it seems like it should be a free clear. If you submit your question, would you mind submitting mine as well?

[LaxRef]

Originally posted by CoachRob
LaxRef,

I"m sorry for not being clear. I meant a defender standing in the goal crease but not acting as the designated goalkeeper (no throat or chest protector, and no GK crosse). If you can't get a backup GK ready in time, you have no choice but to put a defender in the crease (that happened to our team once).

We agree he gets no GK privileges, but crease violations still apply.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Under NCAA rules, at least, you MUST have a properly-equipped goaltender on the field; failure to do so is a technical foul (illegal procedure). There are a few A.R.s that need to get fixed from former years, when you could have a defender sub in, but now you MUST have a legally-equipped goalie on the field.

The mechanic that we use is that if the goalie gets a penalty and the team doesn't have a legally-equipped backup ready, we give them time to switch over the equipment (following the provision that tells us to be "reasonably lenient" when a team needs to put in a new goalie). If they want to warm him up (NCAA) they have to call a timeout; I believe NFHS gets a 1-minute warmup, which they might not give you if you need time to switch equipment.

If the team wants to get their original goalie back into the game, they must call a timeout or wait for an appropriate time (other team calls timeout; end of period).

Don't let them make you put a defender in the goal without goalie gear; it's a huge liability issue for you and for them.

Originally posted by CoachRob
You stated: I'd like to apply the same logic, but there's the small matter that the rules ONLY specify a free clear for goalie interference with possession and for time-serving penalties with the ball in the defensive half of the field.

I'm not sure that is true. Rule 7-3, paragraph 2, sentence 1 dictates a free clear for a time-serving penalty in the defensive half, and Rule 6-2.3 gives a free clear for GK interference with possession. I do NOT see a SPECIFIC rule that states a free clear is to be given ONLY under those two situations.

There is a difference between making the statement "Only under these circumstances..." and finding two separate rules that apply the same penalty and concluding these to be the ONLY cases in which that particular penalty is applied. (Do you have a rule reference that states the word "ONLY"?)

For instance, it is one thing to say (1) John Jones is 6' 1", and (2) John Evans is 6' 1", versus saying "ONLY men named John are 6' 1" tall". I think that may be what you have done with the free clear situation. [/B]

Your example is not on point. The rules say that for a non-timeserving technical foul, you award the ball 20 yards laterally from the goal or at the spot where the ball was. Then they give a few exceptions that say when it's a free clear. In the absence of other exceptions, I think you're forced to stick with 20 yards laterally or at the spot.

The appropriate example would be "All men named John are 6'1", except for John Jones and John Evans." Then if you find a guy name John John, he has to be 6'1".

Originally posted by CoachRob I hope I sated that clearly. It's a bit tough to write exactly what you are thinking.

But we agree, it seems like it should be a free clear. If you submit your question, would you mind submitting mine as well? [/B]

Sorry, I already submitted my (long) list for this year.

[CoachRob]

LaxRef,

You are correct (as usual). The part about non time-serving WOULD include crease violations. So, you have made a good point. Given this fact, however, you might conclude that GK interference with possession is ALSO given lateral to the goal. But they wrote in 6-2.3 that situation is also a free clear. So, the 7.3 wording should read "...except when the ball is to be awarded at the center line as defined in other rules". That would alert readers to look for exceptions. Or, they should include it in the exceptions listed below 7-3.

As for the GK issue, I guess the ref did something wrong in allowing us to do that. We have only one set of GK pads, and the change would have taken too long. NFHS allows one minute for warm up, but it takes longer than that.

I also don't see that you MUST have a GK on the field. Under 4-4.2, they define who can move where when you are a man down. They do NOT specify you need to have a GK on the field that I am aware of. I'll post this question on the NFHS forum to see if anybody has a reference.

As for replacing the replacement GK, can't you do it at ANY substitution, not just a time out or end of period? Why would a GK sub be different than any other type of substitution?