Onside kick rule question

[Mingram]

Team A attempts an onside kick. The ball bounces off the ground, high in the air. Team B player, 8 yards downfield, camps under the ball to catch it. Before he can catch it, Team A player blocks him. The ball hits the ground and bounces beyond the 10-yard limit where it is recovered by Team A. I say no foul because once the ball hits the ground (right off the tee), no fair catch or opportunity to catch is involved. Free ball.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Mingram

Team A attempts an onside kick. The ball bounces off the ground, high in the air. Team B player, 8 yards downfield, camps under the ball to catch it. Before he can catch it, Team A player blocks him. The ball hits the ground and bounces beyond the 10-yard limit where it is recovered by Team A. I say no foul because once the ball hits the ground (right off the tee), no fair catch or opportunity to catch is involved. Free ball.

What rule set are you looking for answers for? Cause under NCAA rules, a ball that is driven directly into the ground in a effort to get that big bounce (like you see in most onside kicks) is treated as though it's been kicked directly in the air...and all subsequent rules as such are in effect (KCI).

[hbk314]

Originally Posted by APG

What rule set are you looking for answers for? Cause under NCAA rules, a ball that is driven directly into the ground in a effort to get that big bounce (like you see in most onside kicks) is treated as though it's been kicked directly in the air...and all subsequent rules as such are in effect (KCI).

Is NCAA the only ruleset among NFHS, NCAA and NFL to view it that way? Because that doesn't make much sense to me.

[Mingram]

Thanks, wasn't aware of the bounce rule. Does receiver need space to make a catch like a punt or can he be blocked? (NCAA)

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by hbk314

Is NCAA the only ruleset among NFHS, NCAA and NFL to view it that way? Because that doesn't make much sense to me.

NFHS: K may not touch a free kick in flight unless blocked into the kick, even if no receiver is in position to catch the kick (KCI). Once the ball has touched the ground and gone 10 yards, K may recover it.

[Cliffdweller]

Team A cannot block in free blocking zone unless B initiates it. (NFHS)

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Cliffdweller

Team A cannot block in free blocking zone unless B initiates it. (NFHS)

You mean the neutral zone.

[APG]

Originally Posted by hbk314

Is NCAA the only ruleset among NFHS, NCAA and NFL to view it that way? Because that doesn't make much sense to me.

Player safety...the NCAA powers that be are basically saying there is no appreciable difference between the ball being kicked directly in the air, and a ball that driven in the ground and takes that (high) initial bounce.

Originally Posted by Mingram

Thanks, wasn't aware of the bounce rule. Does receiver need space to make a catch like a punt or can he be blocked? (NCAA)

KCI rules are in place...meaning if a player is in place to make a catch, he can not be interfered with.

NCAA (2014)
Rule 6 Section 4 Opportunity To Catch a Kick

Interference With Opportunity

ARTICLE 1. a. A player of the receiving team within the boundary lines attempting to catch a kick, and so located that he could have caught a free kick or a scrimmage kick that is beyond the neutral zone, must be given an unimpeded opportunity to catch the kick (A.R. 6-3-1-III, A.R. 6-4-1-V, VI and IX).

b. It is an interference foul if, before the receiver touches the ball, a Team A player enters the area defined by the width of the receiver’s shoulders and extending one yard in front of him. When in question it is a foul.(A.R.6-4-1-X-XIII)

c. This protection terminates when the kick touches the ground (Exception: Free kick, par. f below), when any player of Team B muffs or touches a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone, or when any player of Team B muffs or touches a free kick in the field of play or in the end zone (Exception: Rule 6-5-1-b) (A.R. 6-4-1-IV).

f. During a free kick a player of the receiving team in position to receive the ball has the same kick-catch and fair-catch protection whether the ball is kicked directly off the tee or is immediately driven to the ground, strikes the ground once and goes into the air in the manner of the ball kicked directly off the tee.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by SC Official

NFHS: K may not touch a free kick in flight unless blocked into the kick, even if no receiver is in position to catch the kick (KCI). Once the ball has touched the ground and gone 10 yards, K may recover it.

Under the NFHS code, the governing rules are "Catch" (NF: 2-4) and "Recovery" (NF: 2-36) which apply to kicks.

The practice of immediately driving the ball into the ground (hopefully) creating the "big bounce" over the receiving team's front line, is designed to eliminate many of the benefits afforded to "catching" the kick.

The practice can cause confusion with deep officials, who may not see the initial contact with the ground, underscoring the importance of ASSIGNING the responsibility of OBSERVING the path of the ball to one of the "Up" (depending on configuration) officials, who may have the necessity of communicating with "deep" officials regarding flags thrown, that may need to be reconsidered because of the immediate ball grounding.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by ajmc

The practice can cause confusion with deep officials, who may not see the initial contact with the ground, underscoring the importance of ASSIGNING the responsibility of OBSERVING the path of the ball to one of the "Up" (depending on configuration) officials, who may have the necessity of communicating with "deep" officials regarding flags thrown, that may need to be reconsidered because of the immediate ball grounding.

This is another reason Rogers gave for treating the immediate high bouncer and an airborne kick the same. It's not always easy to tell the difference since it happens so quickly.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

This is another reason Rogers gave for treating the immediate high bouncer and an airborne kick the same. It's not always easy to tell the difference since it happens so quickly.

Which is EXACTLY whay it is important that a specific "Up" official should be DESIGNATED to observe EACH/EVERY kick.

When there may be confusion on the deeper end resulting in an inaccurate assessment, that "Up" official is responsible to add the proper information to the discussion and final assessment.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Which is EXACTLY whay it is important that a specific "Up" official should be DESIGNATED to observe EACH/EVERY kick.

When there may be confusion on the deeper end resulting in an inaccurate assessment, that "Up" official is responsible to add the proper information to the discussion and final assessment.

But even the experienced D1 "up" official can't always tell if the ball went straight up or straight into the ground. It happens so fast. This took away the need to worry about that.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

But even the experienced D1 "up" official can't always tell if the ball went straight up or straight into the ground. It happens so fast. This took away the need to worry about that.

The skill required to properly execute a free kick immediately into the ground, so that it subsequently bounces over the R restraining line players (which under NFHS Rules satisfies both requirements for making recovery and possession of the kick by either team legal), is a relatively NEW SKILL that is progressing and spreading, quickly.

To eliminate the confusion you seem concerned about, either of the "up" officials (usually the HL) is ASSIGNED the RESPONSIBILITY of DETERMINING whether EACH kick is first DRIVEN into the ground, or not and is subsequently shared with any "down field" officials who may have observed perceived violations, that would properly be DISCOUNTED due to the initial GROUNDING of the kick.

This Mechanics adjustment, thus far, seems to have effectively eliminated enforcement confusions in NFHS contests.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by ajmc

The skill required to properly execute a free kick immediately into the ground, so that it subsequently bounces over the R restraining line players (which under NFHS Rules satisfies both requirements for making recovery and possession of the kick by either team legal), is a relatively NEW SKILL that is progressing and spreading, quickly.

To eliminate the confusion you seem concerned about, either of the "up" officials (usually the HL) is ASSIGNED the RESPONSIBILITY of DETERMINING whether EACH kick is first DRIVEN into the ground, or not and is subsequently shared with any "down field" officials who may have observed perceived violations, that would properly be DISCOUNTED due to the initial GROUNDING of the kick.

This Mechanics adjustment, thus far, seems to have effectively eliminated enforcement confusions in NFHS contests.

I guess this means you are smarter than Rogers Redding. His words not mine.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by ajmc

The skill required to properly execute a free kick immediately into the ground, so that it subsequently bounces over the R restraining line players (which under NFHS Rules satisfies both requirements for making recovery and possession of the kick by either team legal), is a relatively NEW SKILL that is progressing and spreading, quickly.

To eliminate the confusion you seem concerned about, either of the "up" officials (usually the HL) is ASSIGNED the RESPONSIBILITY of DETERMINING whether EACH kick is first DRIVEN into the ground, or not and is subsequently shared with any "down field" officials who may have observed perceived violations, that would properly be DISCOUNTED due to the initial GROUNDING of the kick.

This Mechanics adjustment, thus far, seems to have effectively eliminated enforcement confusions in NFHS contests.

The UNNECESSARY and seemingly RANDOM bolding of words makes it rATHer diffiCULT To read your posts.