Alabama-Arkansas final minute

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Cliffdweller

If you feel the team got the false start intentionally, then don't start the clock on the RFP, otherwise, if clock was running, wind it.

Intent has little to do with it. Being able to take an unfair disadvantage is what I'm looking at.

[Cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by Rich

Intent has little to do with it. Being able to take an unfair disadvantage is what I'm looking at.

The rules state that if a team attempts to conserve or consume time illegally, the referee shall order the clock stopped or started. Rule 3-4-6

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Cliffdweller

The rules state that if a team attempts to conserve or consume time illegally, the referee shall order the clock stopped or started. Rule 3-4-6

The rules can state whatever they like. If there's a FST with 1 minute left in this situation, we're starting on the snap. I'm not a mind reader. I'm also not allowing a team to run a minute off the clock by taking a penalty.

BTW, the rules say the same in NCAA -- and the conference has publicly said the crew was wrong.

[MD Longhorn]

If I'm ever questioning whether it might have given the fouling team an advantage, I'm starting it at the snap. I probably would have started at the snap in the scenario you presented, Rich. Intent is not required (although if there is intent, it's always at the snap).

This is one of those very few instances where I don't like the NFL rule (they will start at the snap after a DECLINED penalty, even - see 47 seconds in the Dallas-Seattle game).

[APG]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

If I'm ever questioning whether it might have given the fouling team an advantage, I'm starting it at the snap. I probably would have started at the snap in the scenario you presented, Rich. Intent is not required (although if there is intent, it's always at the snap).

This is one of those very few instances where I don't like the NFL rule (they will start at the snap after a DECLINED penalty, even - see 47 seconds in the Dallas-Seattle game).

NFL: True if the penalty (by either team) is committed in the final two minutes in the 2nd quarter or inside of five minutes in the 4th quarter.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by APG

NFL: True if the penalty (by either team) is committed in the final two minutes in the 2nd quarter or inside of five minutes in the 4th quarter.

Yup - that's the part of the rule that I think is rather stupid.

[rwy333]

The SEC press release referenced 3-4-3 as the applicable rule since the foul occurred in the last five minutes of the game. Where did the "last five minutes" qualifier come from. Does the SEC have a special procedure for that rule?

"SEC spokesperson Chuck Dunlap wrote in an email. “However, inside five minutes left in the game, rule 3-4-3 should apply, which includes starting the game clock on the snap ‘if the foul is by the team ahead in the score.’"".

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Yup - that's the part of the rule that I think is rather stupid.

It's especially stupid because it makes the rules different between the 2nd half & the 1st, which means the coin toss matters a little more since they adopted it.

The judgment situation is not as severe as it has been in the past. The rule against delay of game was applied to failures to put the ball in play, for many decades before the rules specified a time limit. The 1st time limit didn't even apply directly to time to play the ball, only time in the huddle! I guess they thought there was less excuse to stall if you weren't huddling. Then for a few years after they adopted a limit on time to play the ball, they retained the limit on time in the huddle.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Cliffdweller

The rules state that if a team attempts to conserve or consume time illegally, the referee shall order the clock stopped or started. Rule 3-4-6

But you can't apply the standard of 3-4-6 to 3-4-3.

[parepat]

Does anyone else think that we are heading into a murky area here. If they want to put a time frame on it, fine. Otherwise, they should give is some guidelines. Otherwise we are left with the language within the rule which refers to "illegally consuming time". What response do we have to the coach that asks "how was my false start illegally consuming time". Likewise, the 10 second runoff occurs within the last minute. Thus we only care about fouling to conserve time in the last minute but care about fouls to consume time in the last 2 minutes? 4 minutes?

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by parepat

Does anyone else think that we are heading into a murky area here. If they want to put a time frame on it, fine. Otherwise, they should give is some guidelines. Otherwise we are left with the language within the rule which refers to "illegally consuming time". What response do we have to the coach that asks "how was my false start illegally consuming time". Likewise, the 10 second runoff occurs within the last minute. Thus we only care about fouling to conserve time in the last minute but care about fouls to consume time in the last 2 minutes? 4 minutes?

I'll start by saying I think this is a valid point, and I agree it would be nice to have a set standard.

With that said, my feeling is that to address the issue in the absence of an established standard (some might call it a rule), we have to explore the underlying issues at play...so here goes.

In the case of trying to illegally conserve time, the team that is behind in the score is trying to cause the clock to be stopped and violates a rule while doing so (illegal formation, illegal shift, etc). In addition to the typical penalty enforcement, there is a clearly defined penalty in the form of a 10 second runoff to address the issue of illegally conserving time. Additionally there is no process by which the offense can repeat the act and conserve more time. If time is conserved illegally without penalty, the benefit gained is somewhat limited.

On the other side of coin, the team trying to consume time is typically ahead. There is an established amount of time that is allowed to elapse between plays. If the clock is continually allowed to run without running a play, a team could effectively gain the lead in the second half (or first half if they are scheduled to receive the second half kick) and never run another play. There is no penalty that allows for time to be put back on the clock. In addition the advantage gained is relatively unlimited.

With all of that in mind, the impact of each action dictates a different mindset for each case.

[ajmc]

If the SEC spokesperson presumes that EVERY FS under 5 minutes left, by a team that's ahead is a conscious act to illegally (steal) time off the game clock, who am I to doubt him. He certainly knows the thought process of SEC teams a lot better than I, however his judgment applies ONLY to the SEC.

If Rich is comfortable deciding that EVERY FS under a minute is also INTENDED to creat an unfair disadvantage, that's his perogative, as long as he's wearing the White Hat (or convince someone else who's wearing one).

INTENT is what often differentiates "Illegal" from an otherwise honest "mistake".

However the rule, as currently written, provides for that decision (Snap or Ready) to be made by the Referee of the game in which the situation happens, so really all that matters is the judgment of the White Hat in that particular game. Presuming those decisions are made, "in the spirit of good sportsmanship"..."The Referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game" (matters distinctly specified in the rules, or not).

[parepat]

Originally Posted by ajmc

However the rule, as currently written, provides for that decision (Snap or Ready) to be made by the Referee of the game in which the situation happens, so really all that matters is the judgment of the White Hat in that particular game. Presuming those decisions are made, "in the spirit of good sportsmanship"..."The Referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game" (matters distinctly specified in the rules, or not).

Unfortunately this is not the case in the Arkansas - Alabama game as the R was outed by his own coordinator. Unless there was a previously memo on this issue by the SEC, I think this R got shafted.

What I think we should do is create a Ref Czar, force all officials to join one organization, charge high dues, and pay the czar handsomely so that he could set guidelines in these types of matters.