NFL Rule Fumbling OOB in the final minute

[RamTime]

If a ball carrier fumbles OOB in the final minute is this intentional stoppage of the clock? Say a team has no timeouts or wants to save their final timeout and a ball carrier that looks like he will be tackled in bounds lunges for the sidelines and before he hits the sidelines the ball is lose but it ends up going out of bounds. Are officials suppose to run 10 seconds off the game clock before the ball can be put in play on the ready for the play signal?

Now I am a High School official...Which I know the rules better but I do love the NFL.

If your play happens in under the last two minutes then you would have a 10 second run off. 5 yard penalty from the spott of the foul unless it was behind the LOS. Then it is enforced from the previous spot. The player that fumbles must recover the ball, if not the ball is spotted at the spot of the fumble and the clock will start on the ready.

I think that covers it, anybody else?

[MJT]

I work NFL rules. There is no 10 second runoff in your senario. The 10 second run off possibilities are for "excess TO's during the last 2 minutes - rule 4-3-6" and "action to conserve time - rule 4-3-10." That rule concerns offensive fouls with the clock running which would normally stop the clock with the penalty. The offense has the option of using a TO if they have one, in lieu of the 10 second run off.

In your case, the ball would be returned to the spot of the fumble, and since you were in the last 2 minutes of either 1/2 the clock starts on the snap for a FFumble OOB's. If the FFuble OOB's was before the last 2 minutes, the clock starts on the RFP.

It is differenct for backward passes that go OOB's.

Also, if a runner "intentionally" fumbles forward, it is considered a forward pass - rule 8-4-2 exception.

[RamTime]

I am a little confused here.

"In your case, the ball would be returned to the spot of the fumble, and since you were in the last 2 minutes of either 1/2 the clock starts on the snap"

This seems like it is a way to stop the clock without using a timeout and without getting out of bounds. In other words a ball carrier sees he isn't going to make it OOB however he is close enough to safely fumble the ball before he is down and the ball succesfully makes it out of bounds. the ball is placed at the spot of the fumble and the clock stops as if he actually got out of bounds and does not start until the snap?

That seems wrong.

Is it a judgment call as far as intentional?

It seems there would be a rule (as far as time keeping) covering fumbles that go out of bounds in the final 2 minutes weather they be intentional or not.



This seems more fair to the defense to me.

If your play happens in under the last two minutes then you would have a 10 second run off. 5 yard penalty from the spott of the foul unless it was behind the LOS. Then it is enforced from the previous spot. The player that fumbles must recover the ball, if not the ball is spotted at the spot of the fumble and the clock will start on the ready.

[Edited by RamTime on Jul 8th, 2005 at 07:23 PM]

[MJT]

Originally posted by RamTime
I am a little confused here.

This seems like it is a way to stop the clock without using a timeout and without getting out of bounds. In other words a ball carrier sees he isn't going to make it OOB however he is close enough to safely fumble the ball before he is down and the ball succesfully makes it out of bounds. the ball is placed at the spot of the fumble and the clock stops as if he actually got out of bounds and does not start until the snap?

That seems wrong.

Is it a judgment call as far as intentional?

It seems there would be a rule (as far as time keeping) covering fumbles that go out of bounds in the final 2 minutes weather they be intentional or not.



This seems more fair to the defense to me.

[Edited by RamTime on Jul 8th, 2005 at 07:23 PM]

Ok, change of plan. The timing cheat sheet I got from my organizer of officials says, " clock on snap on Fumble FOOB's" but that is incorrect. After your question RamTime, I looked in more detail in my official NFL rulebook, and it says the following in "timing last two minutes." 4-3-7 exception # 14 says "On a play from scrimmage, if a fumble goes OOB's forward by any player, the game clock stops on the official's time out signal, then restarts on the wind of the game clock signal." (see 7-5-6-note) and the note says "If, on a play from scrimmage, a fumble goes OOB's forward, the game clock is to be stopped but is to be restarted when the ball can be made RFP at the spot of the fumble. If the ball goes OOB's behind the spot of the fumble, game clock is to be stopped and is to be restarted when the ball is snapped for the next down.

So, the only way the offense gets any advantage is if they fumble it backwards OOB's. However, as I stated earlier, an INTENTIONAL fumble is considered a pass, and a backwards pass OOB's will start the clock on the RFP, so only if it is an unintentional fumble which goes OOB's behind the spot of the fumble.

Does that all make sense now? Thanks for questioning it RamTime, now I will correct the error on my timing cheat sheet.

[PSU213]

Originally posted by RamTime
I am a little confused here.

This seems like it is a way to stop the clock without using a timeout and without getting out of bounds. In other words a ball carrier sees he isn't going to make it OOB however he is close enough to safely fumble the ball before he is down and the ball succesfully makes it out of bounds. the ball is placed at the spot of the fumble and the clock stops as if he actually got out of bounds and does not start until the snap?

That seems wrong.

Is it a judgment call as far as intentional?

It seems there would be a rule (as far as time keeping) covering fumbles that go out of bounds in the final 2 minutes weather they be intentional or not.



This seems more fair to the defense to me.

I think the problem would be ruling a fumble intentional. If it is obvious, then a fumble forward would be a incomplete illegal forward pass, but I would have hard time saying a "fumble" was intentional if the runner did not make some type of 'passing-like' motion.

Also, I guess I can't really see a problem with a ball that is fumbled backwards going OOB. We could argue about it, but I don't really think it is unfair or should be illegal.

Finally, under NFL rules (which I know very little about) it sounds like the offense would still partially get what they want since the clock stops until the ready (or 'wind of the game clock signal').

[MJT]

QUOTE]Originally posted by RamTime


Finally, under NFL rules (which I know very little about) it sounds like the offense would still partially get what they want since the clock stops until the ready (or 'wind of the game clock signal'). [/QUOTE]

Any time the ball goes OOB's, the clock stops until the RFP. If a runner carries the ball OOB's the clock stops until the RFP, until the last 2 minutes of the 1st half, and last 5 minutes of the game, then it starts on the snap. The last 2 minutes of the 1st half, and the last 5 minutes of the game, many timing rules change. The rational is the NFL wants the game to go fast until the end of each 1/2, then the change in timing rules slow things down tremendously.

Once I got used to the NFL timing rules, I really like them. I am the R, and love not having to blow the RFP on most plays. The 40-25 second clock is a really nice way to go cuz it adds much more consistency to the timing from one play to the next.

[Edited by MJT on Jul 8th, 2005 at 08:37 PM]

Originally posted by MJT
QUOTE][i]
Once I got used to the NFL timing rules, I really like them. I am the R, and love not having to blow the RFP on most plays. The 40-25 second clock is a really nice way to go cuz it adds much more consistency to the timing from one play to the next.

Yes, that timing is nice...

MJT, My question for you then (I am not solid on NFL rules) is what about 4-3-10; "There shall be no unusual action or inaction during the last two minutes of the half to conserve time.

Penalty of 5 yards for delay and 10 second reun off of the clock.
In Rams Time play they are fumbling OOBs to conserve time. I do understand if they have a TO they can use it instead of the 10 second run off...?

[MJT]

Originally posted by tpaul

Yes, that timing is nice...

MJT, My question for you then (I am not solid on NFL rules) is what about 4-3-10; "There shall be no unusual action or inaction during the last two minutes of the half to conserve time.

Penalty of 5 yards for delay and 10 second reun off of the clock.
In Rams Time play they are fumbling OOBs to conserve time. I do understand if they have a TO they can use it instead of the 10 second run off...?

I read that as well, Thomas, but in 4-3-10 it gives some examples, including Bwd Pass OOB's, but says in the end, "and any other intentional foul that causes the clock to stop." Now the "foul" part is what make me wonder if it falls under 4-3-10. However when it discusses IG and IFP it says in both cases is says "with the intent to conserve time." So I would assume that if the FFumble in your opinion was "intentional" with the intent to conserve time, you could do have the 5 yard penalty from the spot of the fumble, a 10 second run off, and start the clock on the RFP.

The best part is the game can end during the 10 second run off, and that would be a great rule to add to NF and NCAA in my opinion. It eliminates the offense gaining an advantage in the last minute.

I am going to email this senario to a current NFL official I keep in contact with, and see if he agrees we could have a 10 second run off. It may be a few days, as he does not check his email that often. I'll let you know what I find out.

[golfnref]

NFL Rule- If a player pretends to fumble and causes the ball to go forward it is a forward pass. If this is in advance of the scrimmage line, or not from scrimmage, it would be an illegal forward pass. If this happens in the last minute of either half, there would be a loss of 5 yards, officials will run 10 seconds off the game clock and clock will start on the ready for play. This would apply regardless of whether the direction of the ball was forward or backward.

[QUOTE][i]
I read that as well, Thomas, but in 4-3-10 it gives some examples, including Bwd Pass OOB's, but says in the end, "and any other intentional foul that causes the clock to stop." Now the "foul" part is what make me wonder if it falls under 4-3-10. However when it discusses IG and IFP it says in both cases is says "with the intent to conserve time." So I would assume that if the FFumble in your opinion was "intentional" with the intent to conserve time, you could do have the 5 yard penalty from the spot of the fumble, a 10 second run off, and start the clock on the RFP.

The best part is the game can end during the 10 second run off, and that would be a great rule to add to NF and NCAA in my opinion. It eliminates the offense gaining an advantage in the last minute.

I am going to email this senario to a current NFL official I keep in contact with, and see if he agrees we could have a 10 second run off. It may be a few days, as he does not check his email that often. I'll let you know what I find out. [/QUOTE]

MJT, No problem. I was just wondering. I am working hard all the time on NFHS rules and every now and again I do a semi-pro game that play by NFL rules, which is "modified" a little when I wear thw WH. LOL

[MJT]

Originally posted by golfnref
NFL Rule- If a player pretends to fumble and causes the ball to go forward it is a forward pass. If this is in advance of the scrimmage line, or not from scrimmage, it would be an illegal forward pass. If this happens in the last minute of either half, there would be a loss of 5 yards, officials will run 10 seconds off the game clock and clock will start on the ready for play. This would apply regardless of whether the direction of the ball was forward or backward.

Ya, the tough one is it was "intentional" and I think if it looks "at all fishy" I would rule it intentional and do the 10 second run off, so no advantage could possibly be gained.

What league of semi-pro ball do you work Bob? I work NAFL.

Monte

Originally posted by MJT

Ya, the tough one is it was "intentional" and I think if it looks "at all fishy" I would rule it intentional and do the 10 second run off, so no advantage could possibly be gained.

What league of semi-pro ball do you work Bob? I work NAFL.

Monte

No, I have never worked with Bob but I got to see Bob work last week. His crew did the North/South All-Star game @ Rutgers Stadium. The funny thing was a few years ago his crew was scheduled to do the game and we were talking about it and he said it was canceled because of bad lightening storm. I was like really? My crew (three of us) were to be on the chains that night. Of course this was before I knew Bob. Bob is North of me...

Semi-pro leagues I have worked are:
Garden State Football League
Empire Football League
North East Football Association

[golfnref]

Monte

I work two semi-pro leagues. My crew works all the home games for a MDFL team and an NAFL team in Virginia. We start the regular season tomorrow night. They each use the same stadium , so we have no conflicts. We will work 8 weeks in a row, skip Labor Day weekend and then work two of the next three weeks in Sept. Play-offs in Oct.

Bob

Sorry, which Bob?

[MJT]

Wow, that is interesting! I am from the NW corner of Iowa. I worked my first NAFL game of this year on June 18th, and the other 7 regular season games I am working are in July, Aug, and Sept, with playoffs starting in mid Sept. I really enjoy it!

golfnut Bob is who I was asking what semi-pro works.

Thomas, is that the Bob you were referring to, or did you mean Bob M. ?