why cant.......

[TXMike]

And you have alternatives...soccer, hockey, etc

[PSU213]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

That's about as stupid as anything I've read lately.

There are plenty of girls who are wrestling on the HIGH SCHOOL level.

First, who ever restricted this to the high school level??? Certainly not the original poster. At the high school level a girl is old enough to make her own decisions on the matter, and if she wants to try out for a boy's team, then I believe that to be her prerogative. I cannot accept, however, the argument that because something is permitted at the high school level, it is automatically justified at lower levels, yet that is what your post seems to imply.

Our society cannot afford to speak in terms of absolutes. Not even our Constitution guarantees absolute rights: there is no absolute right to free speech, there is no absolute right to own a gun, and there is no absolute right to vote, and in each case the lack of an absolute is quite necessary. On the same line of reasoning, there should not be an absolute "right" for EVERY girl to try out for ANY boy's team, particulary in youth athletics. At the age when the girl can make an informed decision on the matter, allow her to do as she pleases, but before that time some restrictions need to be set.

In addition, your position cannot be upheld by example alone. As TXMike has reminded us, just because something is so does not mean it should be so. How many times through our history have we held a practice to be an acceptable "norm" for society, only to come to the realization that the practice is morally and ethically deplorable? Yes, we need to eliminate gender discrimination, but we need to remember that participation in athletics comes with real consequences. We cannot overlook practical considerations (injury among them) only in the name of widening the scope of gender equity.

[JRutledge]

Gender is totally different than any other classification. This is the reason there are totally separate leagues for basketball, baseball (or softball) track and field, and swimming to just name a few. Most of these sports are separate because Men in general are stronger and faster then their female counterparts. And because football requires power and speed and it also helps to have some natural physical ability (do not see too many women that are 6'5", 230 and can run a 4.4 forty). The truth of the matter, most boys cannot play football either when you get to the HS level. Either they are not big enough or not fast enough. Usually it is hard to see the field if that is the case.

So if this young girl is big enough, strong enough and fast enough she should play. But if she is just as strong as the people in the position that she is trying to beat out for that spot, then she better have more desire and a better work eithic. Because if I was stronger and much faster than the people on my team, I might still be playing football (and a couple other sports as well). It is not all about gender.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

First, let me say that when I wrote, " That's about as stupid as anything I've read lately," I was referring to the school's decision, not your statement or stand on the issue. Now, back to the discussion.

Originally posted by PSU213
First, who ever restricted this to the high school level??? Certainly not the original poster. At the high school level a girl is old enough to make her own decisions on the matter, and if she wants to try out for a boy's team, then I believe that to be her prerogative. I cannot accept, however, the argument that because something is permitted at the high school level, it is automatically justified at lower levels, yet that is what your post seems to imply.

Who said anything about restricting it to high school? What are you rambling about? In your post, you cited a third grader. I cited high school students. Are we not allowed to express our opinions using the situations we have knowledge of?

You wrote, "The fact is the school did not want her to participate because wrestling involves two participants in skin tight outfits grabbing each other, often times in the groin, and the school felt it was not appropriate for an 8 year old to be engaged in such an activity with the opposite sex and have the school sponsor it." My point is that a high school girl is much more developed than a third grader. Also, the boys are much more developed as well and sexual situations and touching are much more of an issue at that age. There aren't concerns on the high school level, why should there be concerns at the third grade level? This is competition, not groping and petting.

Our society cannot afford to speak in terms of absolutes. Not even our Constitution guarantees absolute rights: there is no absolute right to free speech, there is no absolute right to own a gun, and there is no absolute right to vote, and in each case the lack of an absolute is quite necessary. On the same line of reasoning, there should not be an absolute "right" for EVERY girl to try out for ANY boy's team, particulary in youth athletics. At the age when the girl can make an informed decision on the matter, allow her to do as she pleases, but before that time some restrictions need to be set.

When children are too young to make an informed decision, parents look out for the best interest of the child. if the child expresses a desire to play, the parents research the matter and make an "informed decision" that it's okay for her to play, why should the school board not allow her to play? And you can argue all you want but the bottom line is because she's a girl. Yes, playing sports is a privilege and not a right but it's not a privilege that should be denied just because of a person's gender.

In addition, your position cannot be upheld by example alone. As TXMike has reminded us, just because something is so does not mean it should be so.

However, he has yet to explain why it shouldn't be so. Neither have you.

How many times through our history have we held a practice to be an acceptable "norm" for society, only to come to the realization that the practice is morally and ethically deplorable?

So, now you're saying that it's morally and ethically deplorable for a girl to compete against boys? But I would love to hear the answer to your questiuon. Do you know the answer? How about giving us 5 examples?

Questions don't establish a point. Facts establish a point.

Yes, we need to eliminate gender discrimination, but we need to remember that participation in athletics comes with real consequences. We cannot overlook practical considerations (injury among them) only in the name of widening the scope of gender equity.

Any athlete that walks onto a field or court is subject to injury. Just because the athlete is a girl does not necessarily place her in a position that she is more subject to injury than a boy. If the athlete chooses to participate, then the athlete has made the choice. it;s not up to society to say, "No, you can't play honey. You might get hurt." Can you imagine a school saying that to a boy that wants to try out for football? Once again, it all comes down to the girl being discriminated against for one simple reason.

Sorry but the courts agree in these situations, that a athlete shouldn't be forbidden from competing simply because the athlete is a girl. Now whether the coach actually gives any girl trying out for a boys team a chance or not, is another story.

[TXMike]

BBRef:

Would you also support a boy going out for a "traditionally" girl's team?

Is it fair to make the schools make all the special arrangements that are required to allow a girl to participate in football (i.e. extra equipment, special travel arrangements, special locker room arrangements, etc?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by TXMike
BBRef:

Would you also support a boy going out for a "traditionally" girl's team?

Hypothetically, yes, I would if the sport wasn't offered for boys. And I say hypothetically because it's more unlikely that a boy would pursue such. He'd open himself to a lot more ridicule than a girl going out for football or wrestling, just because of the way other boys would react.

We have girls in my area every year who go out for boys sports. I see them playing rec sports together. Last year, we had a girl wrestle at the HS level and the previous year, we had a school with a female placekicker. BTW, she was the high scorer on the team and was voted the MVP of the team by her teammates.

Is it fair to make the schools make all the special arrangements that are required to allow a girl to participate in football (i.e. extra equipment, special travel arrangements, special locker room arrangements, etc?

You're asking what's fair. Is it fair to forbid an athlete from trying out for a team just because the athlete is a girl? Because the athlete is black? Because the athlete is handicapped? Because the athlete is Jewish? Where would it end?

What extra equipmentare we talking about? What special travel arrangements? How difficult is it to have a separate dressing facility for a girl? What's required, a separate office or bathroom?

If special arrangements have to be made, I honestly don't see it as that big of a deal. I know of girls volleyball teams that require a school assigned female chaperone because the coach is male. It's an arrangement that has to be made but it's not a big deal.

Perhaps I sound like a bleeding-heart liberal. Actually, I'm probably as conservative as anyone hear. But I recognize that we can't trample on people's rights just because they're a certain gender or race.

[PSU213]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Who said anything about restricting it to high school? What are you rambling about? In your post, you cited a third grader. I cited high school students. Are we not allowed to express our opinions using the situations we have knowledge of?

You have obviously missed my point. I was using the third grader as an example of why we cannot take the logic we use for high schoolers and apply it to the lower levels. The point was: just because we both find it acceptable for girls to be on a boy's football or wrestling team at the high school level, that does not mean we should automatically allow girls on the field, court mat, etc. with boy at the grade school level.

You wrote, "The fact is the school did not want her to participate because wrestling involves two participants in skin tight outfits grabbing each other, often times in the groin, and the school felt it was not appropriate for an 8 year old to be engaged in such an activity with the opposite sex and have the school sponsor it." My point is that a high school girl is much more developed than a third grader. Also, the boys are much more developed as well and sexual situations and touching are much more of an issue at that age. There aren't concerns on the high school level, why should there be concerns at the third grade level? This is competition, not groping and petting.

This is probably going to take us places we don't need to go on this debate, but obviously we have different approaches to how we would raise our children. If I had a daughter there is no way I would let her participate in wrestling while at the grade school level, for the reason that they DON'T realize that this is not a sexual situation. The high schoolers can make the distinction, and that makes all the difference. I'd whip out the Ed. Psych, but that would be way too long.

When children are too young to make an informed decision, parents look out for the best interest of the child. if the child expresses a desire to play, the parents research the matter and make an "informed decision" that it's okay for her to play, why should the school board not allow her to play? And you can argue all you want but the bottom line is because she's a girl. Yes, playing sports is a privilege and not a right but it's not a privilege that should be denied just because of a person's gender.

And we all know that every parent has their child's best interests in mind when it comes to athletics??? Yeah right! I could not even guess how many kids play only because they think it is what their dad wants. Unfortunately there are situation where a parent would push a girl into trying out for a boy's team because they think it would be neat to see their daughter break the gender barrier in the NFL, college wrestling, etc. We absolutely cannot count on the parents to make the best decision for their kids when it comes to sports.

And yes, if you boil it down to the very basic premise, you are not allowing a girl to play simple because she is a girl. But the reason behind that is the fact the boys and girls a different when it comes to physical strength. It is a physiological fact that on average girls are not as strong as boys, and that has to be considered when deciding who can and cannot play.

So, now you're saying that it's morally and ethically deplorable for a girl to compete against boys? But I would love to hear the answer to your questiuon. Do you know the answer? How about giving us 5 examples?

Questions don't establish a point. Facts establish a point.

First, 5 examples of what? Also, in moral/ethical discourse rhetorical questions can go quite a long way in establishing a point. In a general policy debate facts are quite important, but considering we having what is primarily a values debate, facts are relatively minor.

As for the ethically deplorable issue, it's pretty ridiculous to even suggest that girls competing with boys is a bad thing. It is deplorable if we become so caught up on promoting gender equity that we as a society forget our mission to protect our fellow citizens. I go back to the point I raised before: you can't count on parents to do the job, so sometimes it is necessary for an otherwise "uninvolved" party to set the rules.

Any athlete that walks onto a field or court is subject to injury. Just because the athlete is a girl does not necessarily place her in a position that she is more subject to injury than a boy. If the athlete chooses to participate, then the athlete has made the choice. it;s not up to society to say, "No, you can't play honey. You might get hurt."

Actually there are a number of factors that not only put girls at greater risk for fractures and knee injuries, and fractures early in life create more problems for women than men later in life.

The bigger issue however is about making the choice to participate. As I said, I belive a girl in high school can make her own "athletic choices." Younger children cannot give informed consent. Again, we can't always depend on parents to act in the child's best interest. If there was a reason a boy would be at higher risk for injury than other boys, then he should not be allowed to play.

Sorry but the courts agree in these situations, that a athlete shouldn't be forbidden from competing simply because the athlete is a girl.

And obviously we must "obey" the decision of the court when making policy decisions. For the philosphical issues though, the decisions of any court does not really matter. I'm not going to change my mind on this just because a court "says so." My philosophical position is pretty firm here, and no court decisions is going to change that, just like past court decisions have had no bearing on my positions on numerous other issues.

[Edited by PSU213 on Aug 10th, 2003 at 10:26 PM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by PSU213
You have obviously missed my point. I was using the third grader as an example of why we cannot take the logic we use for high schoolers and apply it to the lower levels. The point was: just because we both find it acceptable for girls to be on a boy's football or wrestling team at the high school level, that does not mean we should automatically allow girls on the field, court mat, etc. with boy at the grade school level.

Okay then, please explain what logic you would use in not allowing the young lady who originally started this post to try out for the HS football team?

And yes, if you boil it down to the very basic premise, you are not allowing a girl to play simple because she is a girl. But the reason behind that is the fact the boys and girls a different when it comes to physical strength. It is a physiological fact that on average girls are not as strong as boys, and that has to be considered when deciding who can and cannot play.

Actually, it shouldn't. If we going to consider that one athlete may be stronger than another, then we have to apply it to situations where one boy is stronger than another. And that just doesn't make sense.

First, 5 examples of what?

You asked, "How many times through our history have we held a practice to be an acceptable "norm" for society, only to come to the realization that the practice is morally and ethically deplorable?" I asked for 5 examples so I could better understand how such situations would rate.

As for the ethically deplorable issue, it's pretty ridiculous to even suggest that girls competing with boys is a bad thing.

I agree. I've been saying it for two pages of posts now.

Actually there are a number of factors that not only put girls at greater risk for fractures and knee injuries, and fractures early in life create more problems for women than men later in life.

That occurs no matter what sport they play. Girls are far more susceptible to ACL tears than boys but that happens in basketball more than any other sport. They are goiong to be any more susceptible to it in football.

And obviously we must "obey" the decision of the court when making policy decisions. For the philosphical issues though, the decisions of any court does not really matter. I'm not going to change my mind on this just because a court "says so." My philosophical position is pretty firm here, and no court decisions is going to change that, just like past court decisions have had no bearing on my positions on numerous other issues.

I thought you wrote, "...it's pretty ridiculous to even suggest that girls competing with boys is a bad thing,"? I'll just ask you one question. Do you beleive the young lady who started this thread should be allowed to try out for her HS football team?

[James Neil]

This thread has turned into BS ! It’s obvious to me my first post on this subject was passed over by most of you guys and Katee too. Maybe it was missed because it was the last post on page 1. But then again maybe it’s just because most of you guys are underage compassionless young punks who don’t have daughters ,nieces or wives. in the first place. If any of you “no-saying discerning pucks do happen to have Daughters or nieces or wife's, I feel very sorry for them and you alike. And to you Rut-less gut-less sucks who think it’s quaint and cool to put down the IWFL ladies who play this game, all I can say is shut the frig up! You don't have any right to criticize what you know nothing about. I’ve worked this league. I’ve had the honor of working the inaugural IWFL national championship. These ladies play their harts out and know the game of football. I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for the courage and fortitude they display. And all this in spite of the girly-joke, gender-bashing from the likes of some idiots posting at this board. Let’s move on and let the ladies play

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by James Neil
And to you Rut-less gut-less sucks who think itÂ’s quaint and cool to put down the IWFL ladies who play this game, all I can say is shut the frig up! You don't have any right to criticize what you know nothing about. IÂ’ve worked this league. IÂ’ve had the honor of working the inaugural IWFL national championship. These ladies play their harts out and know the game of football. I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for the courage and fortitude they display. And all this in spite of the girly-joke, gender-bashing from the likes of some idiots posting at this board. LetÂ’s move on and let the ladies play

You read all this other stuff and you had to call me out? This is a joke right?

First of all, I do not need a daughter or wife to have an opinion on any league. Do not need to have a son in order to comment on Major League Soccer and the significance to the society? I do not give a $h!t what the girls that decide to play in the IWFL. I have about as much respect for them as I do the Semi-Pro teams that play football in my area. For the record, that is not much!!! Personnally I think they are damn-near stupid. You are going to play a sport that you are one hit away from not walking, and you are not going to get paid hardly any money to do it. I guess that is smart to you, it is stupid to me, no matter if you are a man or a woman.

So Mr. Neil, please do not come here trying to tell me what I think about girls playing anything. If they want to get knocked the hell out by people that are bigger than they are and stronger than they are, be my guest. That is the same decision of any young boy if he is much smaller and not as fast as the other kids he plays with or against. So if you have a daughter that wants to play a physical sport, go right ahead. I for one will not be holding a sign anywhere to prevent her from doing so. But close minded folks like yourself seem to think that anyone that tells the truth much be against something. You need to spend your time ripping the others that seem to have an issue with girls playing on boy's teams (which I could careless either way), then attacking me because I am not a fan of the silly IWFL. But then again, I guess playing in a nothing league is what gets your respect.

Peace

[cowbyfan1]

Back to the issue at hand, Katee go for it. Best of luck to you as I'm sure the heart and desire you seem to have will get you over most of the guys in the first place. I pray you don't get hurt as I do not know how big or strong you are even though you sound like someone who loves to work out and play sports. I have called girls playing football and baseball and even seen where they are better than a number of the boys. Hope you are one too.
Just remember one thing my coach used to say. PLaying any sport is 90% mental. If you're not into it mentally, you will not do it physically, no matter how good you are. (See list of "pros" a mile long that has been proven with in any of the major sports)

[ABoselli]

And have you given any consideration at all to the complications that your participation will have, i.e. extra equipment, travelling considerations, locker room considerations, etc?

You still have not answered....are there boys on your softball team?

Man, Mike, way to throw down the gauntlet. It's not her concern if there are boys on the softball team - totally irrelevant. Is there a girls football team? Apparently not.

This is just like the straw man argument that Anika bashers came up with - can men compete on the LPGA? It's about being given a chance to compete on a higher level, not higfher level players being given a chance to be ruingers on lower levels. If there were a boys and girls football team, there would be no problem. But there is simply a football team and she wants to try out and compete. Why not let here. She's asking for the opportunity, not to be automatically placed on it. If she can't hack it, let her find out through participation and experience - not because someone else decided she couldn't/shouldn't.

There are lots of boys whose peers will outgrow them and will become unable to participate in later years - shall we weed them out now or should we let them all weed themselves out?

[PSU213]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
I thought you wrote, "...it's pretty ridiculous to even suggest that girls competing with boys is a bad thing,"? I'll just ask you one question. Do you beleive the young lady who started this thread should be allowed to try out for her HS football team?[/B]

First of all, in her original post she did not specify if this was her high school team. I believe she has since clarified that it is indeed her high school's team, and as I said multiple times in previous posts, I believe that in high school an individual is able to make their own decision about whether or not to try out. In short the answer is yes, I believe she should be able to try out.

My only point of contention is I believe that at the youth/grade school level the coach, principal, league, etc. should have some power to not allow someone to try out if there is a clear health risk to that individual, and that means it could be within reason to exclude girls from certain "collision sports." If they do exclude individuals they should have to provide a compelling reason for doing so. There is a big difference between not wanting girls to play in general versus reserving the "right" to exclude a girl because of a higher risk of injury. Again, once you reach the high school level it should be entirely up the individual to make the choice to participate.

[Edited by PSU213 on Aug 11th, 2003 at 11:52 AM]

[STEVED21]

Originally posted by JRutledge

First of all, I do not need a daughter or wife to have an opinion on any league. Do not need to have a son in order to comment on Major League Soccer and the significance to the society? I do not give a $h!t what the girls that decide to play in the IWFL. I have about as much respect for them as I do the Semi-Pro teams that play football in my area. For the record, that is not much!!! Personnally I think they are damn-near stupid. You are going to play a sport that you are one hit away from not walking, and you are not going to get paid hardly any money to do it. I guess that is smart to you, it is stupid to me, no matter if you are a man or a woman.


Peace [/B]

But you have to be of a certain race to understand that race or know when a derogatory statement is or is not allowed to be used??

[sloth]

I have mixed feelings about this. We had girls soccer when I played ball in HS, so there was a comperable sport and this was never an issue.

What I will say is that if you join, just try to blend in. The worse thing you can do is make a spectal of yourself. No one likes the girl that wants to be one of the guys one minute but then also wants to be recognized as a girl. I think you will be okay if you go out and make it clear you want no special treatment and not to be treated any different. Expect to get pounded and hurt...thats the nature of this sport. Unfortunately from what I saw in HS, the slower and smaller players are usually beat around a bit harder (Darwinism of sorts).

I might be the first one to suggest this, but have you ever thought about becoming an offical? I really missed ball after graduating and found that becoming an offical allowed me to get back in withthe game that I love so much. Something to consider...