Clock Question After Timeout and Penalty on Subsequent Play

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

You guys that don't get the problem this causes the defense baffle me. Yes, the NORMAL rule in this situation is for the clock to start on the ready.

However, consider this:

Defense calls time out and has 1 left, there are 30 seconds left in the game.
3rd and 2 on the A35. Offense commits a penalty (IF or Holding, or illegal downfield, or almost anything really) which helps them convert the first down. If the defense declines the penalty, the game is over - so they have to take it. But now the clock starts on the ready - so they have to use their last time out. Offense fails to convert on 3rd, but the clock runs out before they have to punt.

This is EXACTLY why the referee has the discretion to start the clock on the snap when the offensive foul aids them in running out the clock where they otherwise would not have been able to.

What problem? That the defense only has one timeout left? That's not my problem.

I am a WH under NFHS (and occasionally under NCAA rules) and I would not even think about not starting the clock after a formation foul here. A dead ball foul? Perhaps. A DOG under NCAA rules? Certainly. A formation penalty? No chance. Unless I think they are fouling intentionally, which wouldn't even be an afterthought...

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Rich

What problem? That the defense only has one timeout left? That's not my problem.

I am a WH under NFHS (and occasionally under NCAA rules) and I would not even think about not starting the clock after a formation foul here. A dead ball foul? Perhaps. A DOG under NCAA rules? Certainly. A formation penalty? No chance. Unless I think they are fouling intentionally, which wouldn't even be an afterthought...

This is absolutely correct by current rule; but if you can't see that the rule is insane then I don't think that you're thinking it through. As I see it, when the offense gets the ball back with more than about three minutes left in the game, they should not be allowed to run out the clock without the aid of a first down or a B penalty. But all they have to do under the current rules is to be called for a penalty that isn't declined and they've done it.
Hence the entirely obvious response, run to the outside and hold on the edges. The teams are presumably balanced enough that the holding is enough to get them a gain on the play. The goal isn't to draw the penalty; it's to get the first down, but they can very safely push the rules to achieve it.
This might not be so bad (what I'd anticipate you'd reply), but considering there's practically no downside to changing the rule, I don't see why we continue to live with this. My rule proposal would be on accepted penalties inside of 4 minutes left in the half, the offended team has the option of starting on the ready or the snap (if the clock could otherwise have started on the snap). The parenthesized part may need work.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by youngump

This is absolutely correct by current rule; but if you can't see that the rule is insane then I don't think that you're thinking it through. As I see it, when the offense gets the ball back with more than about three minutes left in the game, they should not be allowed to run out the clock without the aid of a first down or a B penalty. But all they have to do under the current rules is to be called for a penalty that isn't declined and they've done it.
Hence the entirely obvious response, run to the outside and hold on the edges. The teams are presumably balanced enough that the holding is enough to get them a gain on the play. The goal isn't to draw the penalty; it's to get the first down, but they can very safely push the rules to achieve it.
This might not be so bad (what I'd anticipate you'd reply), but considering there's practically no downside to changing the rule, I don't see why we continue to live with this. My rule proposal would be on accepted penalties inside of 4 minutes left in the half, the offended team has the option of starting on the ready or the snap (if the clock could otherwise have started on the snap). The parenthesized part may need work.

Too much thought for something that just doesn't happen that often.

After a second live ball foul, I would probably hold the clock until the snap. I'm aware of the perception. No need to codify yet another rule, although they've done so in the NFL.

4 minutes is too much if there was such a rule. In NCAA football, altered timing rules start at 2 minutes -- and that would be perfectly fine for a rule if there was need for one.

I always find it funny that running the clock is considered more important at other parts of the game. Early in the game, a team (with the clock running) commits a DOG (while not in a scrimmage kick formation in NCAA rules). We wind the clock. The offense can run OVER A MINUTE without running a play. Nobody blinks.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Rich

Too much thought for something that just doesn't happen that often.

After a second live ball foul, I would probably hold the clock until the snap. I'm aware of the perception. No need to codify yet another rule, although they've done so in the NFL.

4 minutes is too much if there was such a rule. In NCAA football, altered timing rules start at 2 minutes -- and that would be perfectly fine for a rule if there was need for one.

I always find it funny that running the clock is considered more important at other parts of the game. Early in the game, a team (with the clock running) commits a DOG (while not in a scrimmage kick formation in NCAA rules). We wind the clock. The offense can run OVER A MINUTE without running a play. Nobody blinks.

I don't think it hardly ever happens. Though I'll admit coaches don't take as much advantage of this as they ought to (largely because I don't think they understand whether the clock will run or not).

2 minutes is not enough for the modified rule. But you don't need 4. The problem is that you have the time before 3 plays. And that's 40 seconds a pop. If you can get under 2 minutes with first down (and no timeouts) then the game is over. (Since you can easily burn 3-4 seconds per play, it's really more around 2:15). So somewhere around 2:45 is when it needs to kick in to keep things "fair".

I agree that clock management doesn't matter much earlier in the game.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by youngump

I don't think it hardly ever happens. Though I'll admit coaches don't take as much advantage of this as they ought to (largely because I don't think they understand whether the clock will run or not).

2 minutes is not enough for the modified rule. But you don't need 4. The problem is that you have the time before 3 plays. And that's 40 seconds a pop. If you can get under 2 minutes with first down (and no timeouts) then the game is over. (Since you can easily burn 3-4 seconds per play, it's really more around 2:15). So somewhere around 2:45 is when it needs to kick in to keep things "fair".

I agree that clock management doesn't matter much earlier in the game.

Under 2 minutes with a first down and no timeouts? Should be 3 knees and get on the bus at that point.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Rich

Under 2 minutes with a first down and no timeouts? Should be 3 knees and get on the bus at that point.

That's exactly his point.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

That's exactly his point.

Still don't see the problem. Quite frankly, I'm not sure why we alter time in the first place. 15 minute quarters, after all. Our games already take about 3 hours -- that's plenty of time for a team to win or lose a game.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Rich

Under 2 minutes with a first down and no timeouts? Should be 3 knees and get on the bus at that point.

Yep, 2 minutes with a first down and no timeouts. 3 knees and the bus.
But, 3 minutes with a first down and no timeouts get a first down, a defensive penalty, or punt the ball.
(Whereas currently, it's get a first down, a defensive penalty, or commit a penalty or punt.)