Clock Question After Timeout and Penalty on Subsequent Play

[ATL Bear]

Georgia HS Association rules (GHSA).

At the end of prior play a timeout is called by the defense. Offense runs the next play which is a run and the runner is tackled on the field, however the offense is called for illegal formation. If the penalty is taken, does the clock start when the ball is set, or at snap?

Question is relevant as we were managing the clock at end of game, so had to take the down instead of the penalty.

EDIT - GHSA follows NFHS rules.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ATL Bear

Georgia HS Association rules (GHSA).

At the end of prior play a timeout is called by the defense. Offense runs the next play which is a run and the runner is tackled on the field, however the offense is called for illegal formation. If the penalty is taken, does the clock start when the ball is set, or at snap?

Question is relevant as we were managing the clock at end of game, so had to take the down instead of the penalty.

EDIT - GHSA follows NFHS rules.

Ready for play. The previous play and the timeout are irrelevant. Why did the clock stop? To enforce the foul only. Start on the ready.

[ATL Bear]

Originally Posted by Rich

Ready for play. The previous play and the timeout are irrelevant. Why did the clock stop? To enforce the foul only. Start on the ready.

Thank you for your reply.

It just seems punitive to the defense in that situation, particularly when you're managing clock. No loss of down means in order to get the penalty yardage enforced you have to use multiple timeouts on the same down.

[HLin NC]

No loss of down means in order to get the penalty yardage enforced you have to use multiple timeouts on the same down.

Huh

It just seems punitive to the defense in that situation, particularly when you're managing clock.

The clock was only stopped for the penalty assessment. Defense got to choose the yardage or the down. That is the extent of their options. Decline the penalty and you are one down closer to getting the ball back in your clock management. You don't get a choice of all 3. How badly do you want to punish the offense for a foul at the snap?

[Reffing Rev.]

:When the clock counts...the referee is authorized to start the clock on the snap in the case you mentioned. Under normal circumstances the clock would start on the ready when the down ended in bounds and the clock was then stopped to administer a foul. When it is possible a team fouls to run the clock the referee may hold the clock until the snap.

[maven]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

How badly do you want to punish the offense for a foul at the snap?

That's what I was wondering. Why would the penalty on the offense suddenly become worse because the defense needs to conserve time?

[ATL Bear]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

Huh

Clock is stopped on 2nd down with your initial timeout. In order to stop the clock again and gain the penalty yards, you have to initiate a timeout on the same down.

The clock was only stopped for the penalty assessment. Defense got to choose the yardage or the down. That is the extent of their options. Decline the penalty and you are one down closer to getting the ball back in your clock management. You don't get a choice of all 3. How badly do you want to punish the offense for a foul at the snap?

Well, how is it punishing them any worse when the clock was stopped prior to the play running? Since no loss of down, and the recognition of an illegal play run by the offense thanks to an infraction, why should the offense be entitled to those aspects of the result of the play when the penalty is accepted? Why not simply assess the penalty yardage, while keeping the down and clock status the same as it was at the end of the prior play? Especially when you're talking about a LOS penalty as opposed to a downfield or play action penalty.

[HLin NC]

This isn't some new revelation. Decline the penalty and the down counts. Your defense is now one down closer to getting off the field and getting the ball back.
It isn't the rules committee's job to just totally bail out your defense and save your TO's

Pretty basic timing rule. I don't know too many teams that commit an intentional IF.

[PAUmpire]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

Pretty basic timing rule. I don't know too many teams that commit an intentional IF.

And if they do the White Hat has the authority to stop the clock, else wise just keep playing your game.

[HLin NC]

Of course if we're just going all out, let's just make A automatically turn the ball over to B because they are trying to save their TO's .

There goes that pesky fundamental about no foul causes loss of the ball

[bisonlj]

Without their foul, it would be 3rd down and the clock would continue running. You would have to use your time out anyway. Now with the foul you have a choice. If you can't afford to have any more time run off the clock, you decline the penalty and take the result of the play. If the yardage would be helpful (i.e. get your opponent out of FG range), then you may want to consider accepting the penalty.

You would like the NFL version of this. I'm not sure about all fouls, but the Cowboys committed a foul a couple weeks ago with just over a minute left and they were trying to run out the clock. The clocked stopped for penalty enforcement and did not start until the snap. Rather than run out most of the time, it gave Detroit plenty of time to run several plays and set up the winning TD.

[HLin NC]

You would like the NFL version of this. I'm not sure about all fouls, but the Cowboys committed a foul a couple weeks ago with just over a minute left and they were trying to run out the clock. The clocked stopped for penalty enforcement and did not start until the snap. Rather than run out most of the time, it gave Detroit plenty of time to run several plays and set up the winning TD.

I think this is what he wants.

[MD Longhorn]

You guys that don't get the problem this causes the defense baffle me. Yes, the NORMAL rule in this situation is for the clock to start on the ready.

However, consider this:

Defense calls time out and has 1 left, there are 30 seconds left in the game.
3rd and 2 on the A35. Offense commits a penalty (IF or Holding, or illegal downfield, or almost anything really) which helps them convert the first down. If the defense declines the penalty, the game is over - so they have to take it. But now the clock starts on the ready - so they have to use their last time out. Offense fails to convert on 3rd, but the clock runs out before they have to punt.

This is EXACTLY why the referee has the discretion to start the clock on the snap when the offensive foul aids them in running out the clock where they otherwise would not have been able to.

[HLin NC]

I understand the issue Longhorn but there is some advantage inherent to possessing the football. Conversely, it isn't really fair that a dead ball foul's penalty by B is assessed on 4th down after the determination for the LTG has been reached or not. I don't see ATL Bear squawling about that. B is perfectly able to try and strip the ball to gain possession. No where does it say that a team gets to keep its time outs in its vest pocket because it really, really wants to save them for its offense.

If you as the R feel that A was intentionally fouling to gain an advantage, then by all means, hold the clock. I just don't think that many teams nor their coaches, are that sharp.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

You guys that don't get the problem this causes the defense baffle me. Yes, the NORMAL rule in this situation is for the clock to start on the ready.

However, consider this:

Defense calls time out and has 1 left, there are 30 seconds left in the game.
3rd and 2 on the A35. Offense commits a penalty (IF or Holding, or illegal downfield, or almost anything really) which helps them convert the first down. If the defense declines the penalty, the game is over - so they have to take it. But now the clock starts on the ready - so they have to use their last time out. Offense fails to convert on 3rd, but the clock runs out before they have to punt.

This is EXACTLY why the referee has the discretion to start the clock on the snap when the offensive foul aids them in running out the clock where they otherwise would not have been able to.

What problem? That the defense only has one timeout left? That's not my problem.

I am a WH under NFHS (and occasionally under NCAA rules) and I would not even think about not starting the clock after a formation foul here. A dead ball foul? Perhaps. A DOG under NCAA rules? Certainly. A formation penalty? No chance. Unless I think they are fouling intentionally, which wouldn't even be an afterthought...