The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Football

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:23am
Moderator M-800
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
Roughing the "passer"

NFL, NCAA, NFHS, Canadian Rulings:

On these plays, the "Tackle" is something you would not rule as unnecessary roughness against a normal player, but something that if performed on a QB behind the line, you WOULD rule as roughing the passer.

A) RB#34 is 10 yards past the line of scrimmage when he attempts to pass the ball downfield to WR#80. RB is then tackled as above. Ruling?

B) RB#34 is 10 yards past the line of scrimmage when he attempts to throw a backward pass across the field to WR#80. RB is then tackled as above. Ruling?

C) RB#34 is 10 yards past the line of scrimmage when he attempts to throw a backward pass across the field to WR#80. Due to wind, the ball actually ends up going 2 yards forward before caught by WR#80. While the ball is in the air, RB is tackled as above. Ruling?
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'”

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:40am
Fav theme: Roundball Rock
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Near Dog River (sorta)
Posts: 8,557
Lightbulb Canadian Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
NFL, NCAA, NFHS, Canadian Rulings:

On these plays, the "Tackle" is something you would not rule as unnecessary roughness against a normal player, but something that if performed on a QB behind the line, you WOULD rule as roughing the passer.

A) RB#34 is 10 yards past the line of scrimmage when he attempts to pass the ball downfield to WR#80. RB is then tackled as above. Ruling?
The RB is expected to know where he is on the field, so I would rule this an offside pass (subject to penalty). When the RB is hit as you describe, I do not see an illegal hit because the defense wouldn't expect a forward pass from the RB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
B) RB#34 is 10 yards past the line of scrimmage when he attempts to throw a backward pass across the field to WR#80. RB is then tackled as above. Ruling?
When the RB is hit as you describe, I do not see an illegal hit because the defense wouldn't expect a forward pass from the RB again because he is sufficiently beyond the LS. That a pass was made doesn't draw a RTP foul. B could still be guilty of a generic UR foul, though, but it would have to sell itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
C) RB#34 is 10 yards past the line of scrimmage when he attempts to throw a backward pass across the field to WR#80. Due to wind, the ball actually ends up going 2 yards forward before caught by WR#80. While the ball is in the air, RB is tackled as above. Ruling?
Same as (B).
__________________
Pope Francis
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:59am
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,191
NFHS
I'm writing off the top of my head (for the sake of learning since I'm a FB rookie), but my understanding is that for RTP to be called, you have to have a legal forward pass. None of these situations fit that.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:28pm
Chain of Fools
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,574
Adam, you are correct. Given the parameters of the post, for NFHS, you've got nothing.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:05pm
Archaic Power Monger
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,984
NCAA

The definition of a passer was just changed recently removing the requirement that the forward pass must be legal. So if a QB is beyond the line when he throws but his hit late, roughing the passer applies still.

If it's 10 yards down field before he throws a forward pass, I'd be quite hesitant to throw for roughing unless he was very obviously hit late to the point I'd have thrown for a late hit anyways.
__________________
Even if you’re on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there. - Will Rogers
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
NFHS
I'm writing off the top of my head (for the sake of learning since I'm a FB rookie), but my understanding is that for RTP to be called, you have to have a legal forward pass. None of these situations fit that.
Is it the same if the QB is behind the LOS? I saw a play this year in a subvarsity game where a team ran an option play out of shotgun. The QB pitched the ball (not a forward pass) to the RB, and was hit by a defensive lineman right after he pitched it. A flag was thrown for roughing the passer. Our team was on defense, and we asked how it could have been roughing the passer if there was no forward pass.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:54pm
Chain of Fools
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,574
If the ball is pitched forward, it's a forward pass. Don't confuse generic football terms with rule terminology. A forward pass doesn't have to be a pretty, lofted spiral a la Dan Marino.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:33pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,171
The RTP protection is designed for a pocket passer, or at least one that resets himself to throw a pass if outside the pocket. I'm not going to suggest to not call it in ANY other situation, but tread very lightly. As stated, if its a plain PF, just call that.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2012, 05:11pm
Moderator M-800
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
No NFL answers yet.

NCAA - what if you have a passer in semi-open field, that has JUST crossed the line of scrimmage --- enough that when he throws it, you have a flag for illegal forward pass. Is that guy still protected as a passer? (And as a given, if you have a PF, you have a PF... this refers to hits NOT considered PF, but for which you would have called RTP in the pocket).
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'”

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2012, 06:29pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
Is it the same if the QB is behind the LOS? I saw a play this year in a subvarsity game where a team ran an option play out of shotgun. The QB pitched the ball (not a forward pass) to the RB, and was hit by a defensive lineman right after he pitched it. A flag was thrown for roughing the passer. Our team was on defense, and we asked how it could have been roughing the passer if there was no forward pass.
Did he pitch it forward?
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2012, 07:23pm
Medium Kahuna
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: At home
Posts: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
No NFL answers yet.
NFL does not have a roughing the passer rule, but rather a roughing the quarterback rule. Since the passer is not the QB, he is afforded no additional protection.

If I don't have this exactly right, APG will be along shortly to correct me.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2012, 07:58pm
APG's Avatar
APG APG is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,890
Quote:
Originally Posted by maven View Post
NFL does not have a roughing the passer rule, but rather a roughing the quarterback rule. Since the passer is not the QB, he is afforded no additional protection.

If I don't have this exactly right, APG will be along shortly to correct me.
There is a roughing the passer rule. It applies to legal and illegal forward passes behind the line of scrimmage. Roughing the passer does not apply to to illegal forward passes beyond the line of scrimmage but a defender can still be called for unnecessary roughness (as witnessed in the Sunday Night game last night with the illegal forward pass by Jay Cutler and the subsequent UNR).
__________________
Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, given a chance to climb, they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions.

Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.

Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2012, 09:16am
Moderator M-800
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by APG View Post
There is a roughing the passer rule. It applies to legal and illegal forward passes behind the line of scrimmage. Roughing the passer does not apply to to illegal forward passes beyond the line of scrimmage but a defender can still be called for unnecessary roughness (as witnessed in the Sunday Night game last night with the illegal forward pass by Jay Cutler and the subsequent UNR).
This is the exact play that caused my train of thought. Problem is, at least on the mike, he said roughing the passer, and not UNR. Not that it mattered in enforcement - and I DO agree it was UNR, but it made me wonder what the call would have been had it not been UNR, and just RTP as called.
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'”

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:00am
APG's Avatar
APG APG is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,890
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
This is the exact play that caused my train of thought. Problem is, at least on the mike, he said roughing the passer, and not UNR. Not that it mattered in enforcement - and I DO agree it was UNR, but it made me wonder what the call would have been had it not been UNR, and just RTP as called.
Are you sure? I actually remember the call being unnecessary roughness and that's what's in the official play-by-play...not that it matters in the NFL enforcement wise. There would be no difference on that play between UNR and RTP.
__________________
Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, given a chance to climb, they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions.

Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.

Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:39am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 110
I don't remember the exact verbage but it was something like an unnecessary blow to the quarterback above the shoulders.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NHSF "intentional" vs NCAA "flagarent" terminology Duffman Basketball 17 Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:15pm
Is "the patient whistle" and "possession consequence" ruining the game? fiasco Basketball 46 Fri Dec 02, 2011 08:43am
OT: Calling the official a "hater" and "loser" bainsey Basketball 35 Wed Sep 14, 2011 03:53pm
ABC's "Nightline" examines "worst calls ever" tonight pizanno Basketball 27 Fri Jul 04, 2008 06:08am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:22pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1