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-   -   Roughing the "passer" (https://forum.officiating.com/football/92894-roughing-passer.html)

MD Longhorn Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:23am

Roughing the "passer"
 
NFL, NCAA, NFHS, Canadian Rulings:

On these plays, the "Tackle" is something you would not rule as unnecessary roughness against a normal player, but something that if performed on a QB behind the line, you WOULD rule as roughing the passer.

A) RB#34 is 10 yards past the line of scrimmage when he attempts to pass the ball downfield to WR#80. RB is then tackled as above. Ruling?

B) RB#34 is 10 yards past the line of scrimmage when he attempts to throw a backward pass across the field to WR#80. RB is then tackled as above. Ruling?

C) RB#34 is 10 yards past the line of scrimmage when he attempts to throw a backward pass across the field to WR#80. Due to wind, the ball actually ends up going 2 yards forward before caught by WR#80. While the ball is in the air, RB is tackled as above. Ruling?

JugglingReferee Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:40am

Canadian Ruling
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 861741)
NFL, NCAA, NFHS, Canadian Rulings:

On these plays, the "Tackle" is something you would not rule as unnecessary roughness against a normal player, but something that if performed on a QB behind the line, you WOULD rule as roughing the passer.

A) RB#34 is 10 yards past the line of scrimmage when he attempts to pass the ball downfield to WR#80. RB is then tackled as above. Ruling?

The RB is expected to know where he is on the field, so I would rule this an offside pass (subject to penalty). When the RB is hit as you describe, I do not see an illegal hit because the defense wouldn't expect a forward pass from the RB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 861741)
B) RB#34 is 10 yards past the line of scrimmage when he attempts to throw a backward pass across the field to WR#80. RB is then tackled as above. Ruling?

When the RB is hit as you describe, I do not see an illegal hit because the defense wouldn't expect a forward pass from the RB again because he is sufficiently beyond the LS. That a pass was made doesn't draw a RTP foul. B could still be guilty of a generic UR foul, though, but it would have to sell itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 861741)
C) RB#34 is 10 yards past the line of scrimmage when he attempts to throw a backward pass across the field to WR#80. Due to wind, the ball actually ends up going 2 yards forward before caught by WR#80. While the ball is in the air, RB is tackled as above. Ruling?

Same as (B).

Adam Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:59am

NFHS
I'm writing off the top of my head (for the sake of learning since I'm a FB rookie), but my understanding is that for RTP to be called, you have to have a legal forward pass. None of these situations fit that.

HLin NC Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:28pm

Adam, you are correct. Given the parameters of the post, for NFHS, you've got nothing.

Welpe Mon Nov 12, 2012 02:05pm

NCAA

The definition of a passer was just changed recently removing the requirement that the forward pass must be legal. So if a QB is beyond the line when he throws but his hit late, roughing the passer applies still.

If it's 10 yards down field before he throws a forward pass, I'd be quite hesitant to throw for roughing unless he was very obviously hit late to the point I'd have thrown for a late hit anyways.

zm1283 Mon Nov 12, 2012 02:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 861753)
NFHS
I'm writing off the top of my head (for the sake of learning since I'm a FB rookie), but my understanding is that for RTP to be called, you have to have a legal forward pass. None of these situations fit that.

Is it the same if the QB is behind the LOS? I saw a play this year in a subvarsity game where a team ran an option play out of shotgun. The QB pitched the ball (not a forward pass) to the RB, and was hit by a defensive lineman right after he pitched it. A flag was thrown for roughing the passer. Our team was on defense, and we asked how it could have been roughing the passer if there was no forward pass.

HLin NC Mon Nov 12, 2012 02:54pm

If the ball is pitched forward, it's a forward pass. Don't confuse generic football terms with rule terminology. A forward pass doesn't have to be a pretty, lofted spiral a la Dan Marino.

Texas Aggie Mon Nov 12, 2012 04:33pm

The RTP protection is designed for a pocket passer, or at least one that resets himself to throw a pass if outside the pocket. I'm not going to suggest to not call it in ANY other situation, but tread very lightly. As stated, if its a plain PF, just call that.

MD Longhorn Mon Nov 12, 2012 05:11pm

No NFL answers yet.

NCAA - what if you have a passer in semi-open field, that has JUST crossed the line of scrimmage --- enough that when he throws it, you have a flag for illegal forward pass. Is that guy still protected as a passer? (And as a given, if you have a PF, you have a PF... this refers to hits NOT considered PF, but for which you would have called RTP in the pocket).

Adam Mon Nov 12, 2012 06:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by zm1283 (Post 861798)
Is it the same if the QB is behind the LOS? I saw a play this year in a subvarsity game where a team ran an option play out of shotgun. The QB pitched the ball (not a forward pass) to the RB, and was hit by a defensive lineman right after he pitched it. A flag was thrown for roughing the passer. Our team was on defense, and we asked how it could have been roughing the passer if there was no forward pass.

Did he pitch it forward?

maven Mon Nov 12, 2012 07:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 861820)
No NFL answers yet.

NFL does not have a roughing the passer rule, but rather a roughing the quarterback rule. Since the passer is not the QB, he is afforded no additional protection.

If I don't have this exactly right, APG will be along shortly to correct me. :)

APG Mon Nov 12, 2012 07:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by maven (Post 861833)
NFL does not have a roughing the passer rule, but rather a roughing the quarterback rule. Since the passer is not the QB, he is afforded no additional protection.

If I don't have this exactly right, APG will be along shortly to correct me. :)

There is a roughing the passer rule. It applies to legal and illegal forward passes behind the line of scrimmage. Roughing the passer does not apply to to illegal forward passes beyond the line of scrimmage but a defender can still be called for unnecessary roughness (as witnessed in the Sunday Night game last night with the illegal forward pass by Jay Cutler and the subsequent UNR).

MD Longhorn Tue Nov 13, 2012 09:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by APG (Post 861844)
There is a roughing the passer rule. It applies to legal and illegal forward passes behind the line of scrimmage. Roughing the passer does not apply to to illegal forward passes beyond the line of scrimmage but a defender can still be called for unnecessary roughness (as witnessed in the Sunday Night game last night with the illegal forward pass by Jay Cutler and the subsequent UNR).

This is the exact play that caused my train of thought. Problem is, at least on the mike, he said roughing the passer, and not UNR. Not that it mattered in enforcement - and I DO agree it was UNR, but it made me wonder what the call would have been had it not been UNR, and just RTP as called.

APG Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 861909)
This is the exact play that caused my train of thought. Problem is, at least on the mike, he said roughing the passer, and not UNR. Not that it mattered in enforcement - and I DO agree it was UNR, but it made me wonder what the call would have been had it not been UNR, and just RTP as called.

Are you sure? I actually remember the call being unnecessary roughness and that's what's in the official play-by-play...not that it matters in the NFL enforcement wise. There would be no difference on that play between UNR and RTP.

bkdow Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:39am

I don't remember the exact verbage but it was something like an unnecessary blow to the quarterback above the shoulders.


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