Rules questions

[Robert Goodman]

But you can't blame me for construing the 25/30 yds. from the spot provision as a penalty, when so many of you say that Fed's "additional 15 yards" in the intentional PI provisions is a penalty -- and indeed that is the way the latter is being administered. In each case the rules writers (I guess the buck stops with the editor) have, in the middle of a passage giving penalties, stuck another type of enforcement, but you're saying that in one case (Fed PI) they mean it to be a penalty (in that case a 2nd penalty enforced after the 1st), but in the other (Fed & NCAA re free kick to out of bounds) you're saying it's an enforcement option which is not to be construed as a penalty.

There are ways the language of each of these could be cleaned up to conform to the meaning that's apparently been passed down thru the officials' grapevine.

What were the other people arguing for in the case of mbcrowder's "fun discussion"?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

What were the other people arguing for in the case of mbcrowder's "fun discussion"?

It was "fun" on the field. I think everyone here was nearly unanimous. The awarded spot is just that - an awarded spot, not a penalty (and no, I don't "blame you" for not knowing that). More analogous to a touchback's awarded spot than a penalty - with the obvious exception that this is not a fixed yard line but rather a distance from the kick.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

It was "fun" on the field. I think everyone here was nearly unanimous. The awarded spot is just that - an awarded spot, not a penalty (and no, I don't "blame you" for not knowing that). More analogous to a touchback's awarded spot than a penalty - with the obvious exception that this is not a fixed yard line but rather a distance from the kick.

You say it's not a penalty, but it's given as a choice of spot after the play is flagged, so it sure seems to act like a penalty. It seems to fit Fed's 2-16-5 and 2-16-1 definitions, and similarly NCAA's 2-20. Do you signal "penalty declined" when this option is chosen?

[CT1]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

You say it's not a penalty, but it's given as a choice of spot after the play is flagged, so it sure seems to act like a penalty. It seems to fit Fed's 2-16-5 and 2-16-1 definitions, and similarly NCAA's 2-20. Do you signal "penalty declined" when this option is chosen?

No, because declining the penalty would leave the ball at the OOB spot. (That happens sometimes after an attempted on-side kick that goes OOB.)

When R chooses the 25-yard option, I give the signal, then point to the spot where the ball will be placed.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by CT1

No, because declining the penalty would leave the ball at the OOB spot. (That happens sometimes after an attempted on-side kick that goes OOB.)

When R chooses the 25-yard option, I give the signal, then point to the spot where the ball will be placed.

So when that option is chosen, a penalty is neither accepted, nor declined, nor canceled as part of a double foul situation. Meanwhile in NCAA, the same procedure seems to leave a penalty incomplete according to 10-1-1(a).

It would seem that to satisfy the administrative procedures in both codes, the penalties offered must be declined (or be signaled as canceled by the choice), so that this non-penalty may be chosen and enforcement following the foul completed.

[Welpe]

The foul for free kick out of bounds can offset another live ball foul.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

So when that option is chosen, a penalty is neither accepted, nor declined, nor canceled as part of a double foul situation. Meanwhile in NCAA, the same procedure seems to leave a penalty incomplete according to 10-1-1(a).

It would seem that to satisfy the administrative procedures in both codes, the penalties offered must be declined (or be signaled as canceled by the choice), so that this non-penalty may be chosen and enforcement following the foul completed.

Incorrect. Declining this penalty means the ball goes to the spot that it went out of bounds. Accepting this penalty gives the receiving team two options (usually), one of which is taking the ball 30 (or 25) yards from the spot of the kick.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Incorrect. Declining this penalty means the ball goes to the spot that it went out of bounds. Accepting this penalty gives the receiving team two options (usually), one of which is taking the ball 30 (or 25) yards from the spot of the kick.

Then you're saying either option is a penalty. In that case, why doesn't the option specified above act like a distance penalty in terms of half-the-distance restriction? It's specified as a distance from a spot, isn't it?

Is the problem that the distance is specified toward the offended team's goal line rather than the offending team's (Fed 10-1-5, NCAA 10-2-6)? In that case, why deprive the offended team of an option? If the enforcement of that choice would put the ball on or behind their goal line, offer them a touchback.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

It would seem that to satisfy the administrative procedures in both codes, the penalties offered must be declined (or be signaled as canceled by the choice), so that this non-penalty may be chosen and enforcement following the foul completed.

You seem to be hung up on signals, Robert. Were you a traffic cop in a past life?