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Thu Jun 26, 2003, 11:52am
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For those you you with the 2003 Rule and Case Book, tell me your understanding of when possession changes on a post-scrimmage kick.
Consider: Fundamental I-3 now reads "A loose ball is in possession of the team whose player was last in possession unless post-scrimmage kick applies." Fundamental I-7 now reads "After a distance penalty, the ball belongs to the team which was in possession at the time of the foul according to applicable rules. Team possession may then change if a new series is awarded. Sounds like on a PSK possession changes maybe when it crosses the expanded neutral zone. But, if you read Case Book Part I, Situation 4: Fourth and 5 for K from R's 49-yard line, where he is downed. During the return, R3 holds K7 at R's 30-yard line. RULING: Following enforcement of R's holding penalty, it would be R's ball, first and 10 from R's 20-yard line. This is not a post-scrimmage kick enforcement, but a post-possession foul. But then if possession changes when the kick crosses the expanded neutral zone ALL fouls would be post-possession on a PSK situation. Am I reading all this correctly? 
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Thu Jun 26, 2003, 12:08pm
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Ed, without my books I am winging it a little bit, as we had PSK here in WY last year as an experiment. Yes K pretty much gives up possession when it crosses the ENZ, and as such yes all of those fouls become post possession fouls so to speak. We really didn't see much of the PSK come into play last year. Probably less than 10 times out of 30 +/- varsity contests that our association worked last year.
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Thu Jun 26, 2003, 01:54pm
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Ed,
Will not see any books until mid-August, but from what I've seen posted here and elsewhere, there are a few rule omissions in some key places that should have been altered for the PSK change. That being said, the case play sited is NOT a PSK situation as the kick part of the play has ended. Maybe the NF is just trying to point that out so that some official doesn't try to enforce the hold from the end-of-kick spot in error. Just a thought.
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Thu Jun 26, 2003, 07:45pm
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Quote:
Funny because at last week's football meeting when that play was discussed many thought PSK enforcement was from the end of the down. Also, As I read further in Comments on the 2003 Revisions the principle of "clean hands" has been revised to say on a PSK the hands must be "clean" when the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone.
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Thu Jul 10, 2003, 05:34am
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OK let me see if I have this down since I do not have my books yet and am really not that into collage rules.
If R fouls from the snap to the time before the ball is past the ENZ, the foul is enforced from the previous spot and 4th down again unless the distance gives K a 1st down. If R fouls after the ball has crossed the ENZ and before the end of the kick, enforce from the end of the kick. 1st and 10 R. If R fouls after the catch then normal running play/all but 1 enforcement is used (spot of foul or end of run, which ever is behind the other) Now what I am not sure about (that is if I have the R part right) is K. Is it the same as before? Before end of kick, back to previous spot and after end of kick, from the suceeding spot (which I say that as 99% of the time a foul on K will be something like a facemask or late hit on kicks) or is that broken down into pre ENZ, post ENZ and after end of kick too??
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Jim Need an out, get an out. Need a run, balk it in.
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Thu Jul 10, 2003, 07:17am
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To the original question...possession doesn't change on a scrimmage kick until (and unless) team R gains possession by catching or recovering the kick. The principle behind PSK is that by kicking the ball, K has shown their intention to give up the ball. But throughout the duration of the kick, Team K is still in legal possession. If they weren't, how would you enforce the penalty for an R foul during the kick that isn't subject to PSK, e.g. a foul by R on the LOS? PSK is just an exception to the fundamental Ed mentioned in his post where the team in possession at the time of the foul does not retain possession after enforcement. Don't confuse PSK situations with a change to the definition of team possession. That definition has not changed.
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Bob M.
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Thu Jul 10, 2003, 10:06am
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I have come to the conclusion and my hope is that all the other football officials follow, the wording in the book is there to provide a guideline on PSK fouls.
On the field we can simply think any foul committed in the vicinity of the ENZ by R would not be a PSK foul. Fouls committed downfield by R before change of possession would be PSK fouls. Forget knowing exactly when the ball crosses the ENZ as to whether the foul occurs before or after. If you know where the foul occurred let that be your guide.
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Thu Jul 10, 2003, 10:45am
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I finally got my 2003 rule book and case book, and now I think I'm more confused than ever regarding the Fed's implementation of PSK. In these books the Federation defines when PSK is enforceable a number of different(inconsistent) ways:
1. In the Rule Changes for 2003, they outline the change to 2-16-2g. There they say PSK is applicable for "fouls by the receiving team during a scrimmage kick..." 2. NF 2-16-2g itself likewise defines PSK fouls as those by R that "occur on R's side of the expanded neutral zone prior to the end of the kick during a scrimmage kick." Also, 2-16-2g states that the kick must end beyond the neutral zone for PSK to be applicable. NF 10-4-3 is inconsistent with that statement. 3. NF 10-4-3a & b say that PSK is applicable when "R fouls occur during scrimmage kick plays..." Meanwhile, they fail to define what a scrimmage kick play is. 4. Then in their Comments on the 2003 Rules Revisions (p. 73), they say that PSK applies for R fouls "...that occur after the ball has crossed the expanded neutral zone on a scrimmage kick, but prior to ending of the kick by rule." Does anyone have the definitive word from Diehl on exactly what point in the play the possibility for PSK enforcement begins? The snap? the kick? when the kick crosses the ENZ? The Case Book plays on pp. 3-4 provide no clarity.
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Bob M.
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Thu Jul 10, 2003, 11:40am
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Bob,
I don't have my books yet, but from reading your post it appears that they do but in a combination of areas. #4 says that PSK is in force after the kick crosses the ENZ, which was my understanding from us using it in WY last year. Again without my books what I recall from last year was the foul had to occur behind the ENZ, after the kick crossed the ENZ and before the kick ended for PSK to come into play. I think we can complicate the Fed version of PSK by reading too much into it. To me it seemed pretty simple, that is not to say that all of the above situations in the threads are simple. I think if we follow the basics, 1 the foul must occur on R side of the ENZ, and before the end of the kick 2 the kick must be beyond the ENZ 3 R must be in possesion at the end of the down If all three of the above are met we have PSK enforcement, if not we have an all but one principle enforcement, with particular care taken as to who was in possesion at the end of the play.
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Thu Jul 10, 2003, 12:12pm
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cmathews...Thanks. I understand PSK as it exists in NCAA rules and at least there it's consistently defined throughout their rule book and their ARs (case book). I've officiated it in NCAA games and I agree with you 100% that it's easy. The Fed is making it difficult because everywhere in their documents that they describe it, they do it in a different way, especially on when during the down PSK potentially begins. In NCAA it's simple: it's applicable on scrimmage kick plays (a defined term) any time from the snap until the kick ends.
And do you recall from your pilot last season whether or not PSK applied when a kick crossed the NZ and then rebounded back behind the NZ (assuming of course that all other PSK criteria were met)? In NCAA rules, such a situation is enforced under PSK. Obviously, it would be assessed as a spot foul.
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Bob M.
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Thu Jul 10, 2003, 12:34pm
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Quote:
Check out the article http://football.officiating.com/x/article/3164 "Behind The Rules with Jerry Diehl -- A Look at the 2003 Rules Revisions." The short answer is PSK enforcement begins when the ball crosses the ENZ.
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Thu Jul 10, 2003, 12:34pm
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According to our "Overview" provided by our commissioner, who presumably has been in contact with the national office, PSK is applicable beginning at the snap. And PSK applies when the kick crosses the NZ and bounces back. I,m not reading anymore about PSK in the rule book until they get the problems fixed. I am going strictly by the overview.
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Thu Jul 10, 2003, 02:13pm
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Bob,
Thankfully we didn't have the back across the ENZ situation come up, which is surprising considering our Wyoming wind LOL. But to the best of my memory yes it would have applied because the ball went beyond the NZ. It is too bad the Fed has to make it so much harder than it is. I should point out however as for our pilot, that one of our white hats, the one that gave us the best understanding of PSK also works college ball, and that is where a lot of his/our understanding was coming from.....so maybe that is why I remember it being a lot like the NCAA LOL
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Fri Jul 11, 2003, 11:06am
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Quote:
Check out the article http://football.officiating.com/x/article/3164 "Behind The Rules with Jerry Diehl -- A Look at the 2003 Rules Revisions." The short answer is PSK enforcement begins when the ball crosses the ENZ. [/B][/QUOTE]Ed, Im glad you gave us the "The short answer" of the article because at this time I don't feel its worth becoming a paying member to this site just to become more confused about these Fed PSK mysteries. As we can see, Mr. Diehl obviously didnt write the overview Smiley told us about. BTW Ed....nice pic, you one hansom dude! 
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