Kick or Defer?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yes, but they also do not know what that means sometimes.

They know it means you'll honor their choice to kick. That's all you asked, that's all they're owed.

What do you do, draw them aside in a situation and say, "If you accept that penalty, it'll be your 2nd and 1 here, but if you decline it, it'll be your 1st and 10 a yard ahead. Some people don't realize it, but 2nd and 1 is what we call a `waste down', a down you'd probably do a lot better on than the 1 extra yard you'd gain by declining the penalty. I don't know if your coaches think that way, but if they do they'll think you're a moron for declining the penalty."?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

They know it means you'll honor their choice to kick. That's all you asked, that's all they're owed.

What do you do, draw them aside in a situation and say, "If you accept that penalty, it'll be your 2nd and 1 here, but if you decline it, it'll be your 1st and 10 a yard ahead. Some people don't realize it, but 2nd and 1 is what we call a `waste down', a down you'd probably do a lot better on than the 1 extra yard you'd gain by declining the penalty. I don't know if your coaches think that way, but if they do they'll think you're a moron for declining the penalty."?

I don't have any idea what sort of parallel you're trying to draw here... but you've obviously never made the mistake of allowing a kid to actually choose kick. You KNOW that's not what is wanted (and don't forget, we're not talking varsity here - at varsity, you've already asked the coaches in advance). Letting the kid make this mistake is bad form, and there is NOTHING good that can come from it. If you'd ever been there, you'd know that.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You KNOW that's not what is wanted (and don't forget, we're not talking varsity here - at varsity, you've already asked the coaches in advance). Letting the kid make this mistake is bad form, and there is NOTHING good that can come from it. If you'd ever been there, you'd know that.

Not necessarily. I cannot remember ever asking a coach before hand what the choice was and even if I did, the captain is supposed to know what to say. Then again coaches can be at the coin flip in our state, so this is often not an issue. And it is the coach’s responsibility to coach up their captains as to what to do. The other team can hear them and if you just ignore their words we are doing the other team harm IMO.

Peace

[mark in ok]

Different pre-game procedures, I suppose. We go thorough the toss options with the coaches at every level.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

it is the coach’s responsibility to coach up their captains as to what to do.

Exactly. Why should this decision be any different from any other decision a player makes during the game that could be wrong? Why is knowing how to make such a choice different from every other skill in the game? Why don't you point out the ballcarrier so a player won't make a mistake and tackle the wrong guy?

[CT1]

I always ask the coach in the pre-game what he wants to do. At the sideline, I confirm that with the speaking captain, as does the umpire with the opposing captain.

I never offer "kick" as an option. In fact, I usually tell the winning captain "You want to receive/defer, right?"

Nothing good can come from making a team kick off twice in a game, unless that's what the coach really wants to do.

[Rich]

As someone else said, kick is simply the wrong option. Defer will mean that you will, 99.9% of the time, kick the first half and you can *always* choose to kick the second half.

I don't get the option from the coaches. But just as I won't let the captain make an obvious mistake during penalty enforcement, I won't let the captain (or even coach) make a mistake at the *coin toss*.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Exactly. Why should this decision be any different from any other decision a player makes during the game that could be wrong?

It isn't really.

Would you let someone accept a penalty that would result in them losing a turnover without confirming? Do you ask if the defense wants to accept the false start penalty? Shouldn't you give them the chance to mess that up as well?

Heck, the rules actually make this accommodation, in that you automatically decline some penalties when accepting would result in losing a score, for example.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Berkut

It isn't really.

Would you let someone accept a penalty that would result in them losing a turnover without confirming? Do you ask if the defense wants to accept the false start penalty? Shouldn't you give them the chance to mess that up as well?

Heck, the rules actually make this accommodation, in that you automatically decline some penalties when accepting would result in losing a score, for example.

But you're making a judgment here that the choice of which team to have kick off is obvious like the choice of having an extra touchdown, and I'm saying it's not. That choice is there for a reason. Originally there was no such choice in the rules, and if you didn't get or want the choice of ends to defend, you would automatically kick off, because the rules makers thought it obvious that kicking off was better than having the other team kick off! It was only later that they saw that a team might prefer to receive, so they added that choice.

If they want to take out that choice, they can do so as the NFL did ~30 yrs. ago. I'll tell you that with very young players, if they allow kickoffs at all, that's about a 50-50 ball and the choice of kicking or receiving may favor kicking because a scramble for the ball on the other team's side of midfield is better than a scramble on your team's side. And I've written here that even in the pros within the past 25 yrs. I've seen the choice made to kick off taken, and that it proved to be the better choice.

I'll tell you what distorts judgments here: the use of the presumptuous term "receiving team" in the rules. There's no guarantee they actually will receive the ball! At a kickoff it's easy enough to ask which team a captain wants to kick off, but unfortunately I can't think of a better short term for "opponents of the kicking team" to use in the rules for free & scrimmage kicks, so until someone does, we're stuck with "team R". I'd like to call them "team L", because that's the letter after K (analogous to teams A & B), but there's no good word to go with that.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

But you're making a judgment here that the choice of which team to have kick off is obvious like the choice of having an extra touchdown, and I'm saying it's not. That choice is there for a reason. Originally there was no such choice in the rules, and if you didn't get or want the choice of ends to defend, you would automatically kick off, because the rules makers thought it obvious that kicking off was better than having the other team kick off! It was only later that they saw that a team might prefer to receive, so they added that choice.

If they want to take out that choice, they can do so as the NFL did ~30 yrs. ago. I'll tell you that with very young players, if they allow kickoffs at all, that's about a 50-50 ball and the choice of kicking or receiving may favor kicking because a scramble for the ball on the other team's side of midfield is better than a scramble on your team's side. And I've written here that even in the pros within the past 25 yrs. I've seen the choice made to kick off taken, and that it proved to be the better choice.

I'll tell you what distorts judgments here: the use of the presumptuous term "receiving team" in the rules. There's no guarantee they actually will receive the ball! At a kickoff it's easy enough to ask which team a captain wants to kick off, but unfortunately I can't think of a better short term for "opponents of the kicking team" to use in the rules for free & scrimmage kicks, so until someone does, we're stuck with "team R". I'd like to call them "team L", because that's the letter after K (analogous to teams A & B), but there's no good word to go with that.

I'll tell you my unwashed opinion:

Your knowledge of the history of the rules always interests me, but is really not important in how we administer the game today and sometimes gets in the way, IMO, of practical officiating.

The choice to defer gives the team *today* the chance to kick to begin the game as well as the choice to do whatever they want in the second half. In 15 years of being a white hat, I've *never* had the opponents of the team that deferred its choice say anything but "receive." Of course, maybe that's because after I signal the press box, I look at the other team and simply say, "Receive?"

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

If they want to take out that choice, they can do so as the NFL did ~30 yrs. ago. ... in the pros within the past 25 yrs. I've seen the choice made to kick off taken, and that it proved to be the better choice.

I'm confused. The NFL removed the option to kick about 30 years ago, yet the choice to kick has been taken in "the pros" (what, USFL?) within the past 25 years? These can't both be true.

PS - I remember a pro team choosing to kick exactly once - ever. Detroit about 3 years ago. It failed, the other team scored, and they were crucified on ESPN and everywhere else.

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I don't have any idea what sort of parallel you're trying to draw here... but you've obviously never made the mistake of allowing a kid to actually choose kick. You KNOW that's not what is wanted (and don't forget, we're not talking varsity here - at varsity, you've already asked the coaches in advance). Letting the kid make this mistake is bad form, and there is NOTHING good that can come from it. If you'd ever been there, you'd know that.

I've never let a kid choose to kick, but I've twice had coaches elect to kick. Once on purpose and once mistakenly. I even tried to bail both of them out.

After the coach mistakenly stated he wanted to kick, I asked him, "Are you sure? That likely means you'll be kicking both halves." He insisted he wanted to kick, so I let him. Even that nearly got out of hand. We take the field in the second half and he want to know where to line up his kick return team. I tell him that the other team chose to receive the ball to start the second half and asked him which end he wants to kick from? He started to launch into a tirade about how he kicked off the first half and should be getting the ball...

I give him a stop sign after about 3 seconds and say, "Coach, before you really get started, do you remember these exact words coming out of my mouth when you told me you wanted to kick... 'Are you sure? That likely means you'll be kicking both halves'". I must have triggered something, because he simply turned around an walked away calling for his kickoff team. I'm glad I was able to cut him off and get him to realize HIS mistake before he could really get going. I could tell it was going to be a doosey that wasn't going to end well for anyone.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

I've never let a kid choose to kick, but I've twice had coaches elect to kick. Once on purpose and once mistakenly. I even tried to bail both of them out.

After the coach mistakenly stated he wanted to kick, I asked him, "Are you sure? That likely means you'll be kicking both halves." He insisted he wanted to kick, so I let him. Even that nearly got out of hand. We take the field in the second half and he want to know where to line up his kick return team. I tell him that the other team chose to receive the ball to start the second half and asked him which end he wants to kick from? He started to launch into a tirade about how he kicked off the first half and should be getting the ball...

I give him a stop sign after about 3 seconds and say, "Coach, before you really get started, do you remember these exact words coming out of my mouth when you told me you wanted to kick... 'Are you sure? That likely means you'll be kicking both halves'".

I must have triggered something, because he simply turned around an walked away calling for his kickoff team. I'm glad I was able to cut him off and get him to realize HIS mistake before he could really get going. I could tell it was going to be a doosey that wasn't going to end well for anyone.

I've had one choose to kick, effectively. However, he defered the initial coin flip just in case. The weather was ridiculous and he wanted the other team to start deep (and he had a REALLY good kicker). When the weather didn't let up he chose to kick in the 2nd half.

Other than that I did make the mistake of allowing a team to choose to kick to start the game - I was rather new and it was a lower level game... I did try to talk the kid out of it, but didn't confer with coach when the kid insisted. My S-Storm was similar to what you describe, except I did not have the "remember what I said" to bail me out that you did.

[Berkut]

I have a confession to make.

I don't even ask if they want to kick. I just ask if they would like to defer, receive, or defend a goal.

I figure that if for some bizarro reason they really do want to kick, they will know enough to ask me if that is one of their choices.

[TXMike]

i ask the coaches during pregame conference. One time Coach A said he wanted to defer, and Coach B said he wanted to receive. When we went to middle of the field with the captains I realized I had forgot my coin in the locker room. So I gave them what they wanted. Team A you will defer, team B you will receive, Team A what goal will you defend? Everyone got what they wanted.