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Old Tue Oct 25, 2011, 08:37am
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End of Half Delay of Game Question

I was watching a GA high school game Friday night, and saw an unusual end-of-half situation. I'm not an official, so don't know all the rules, so am looking for an explanation.

Team A had the ball on their own 10, 4th down, with the clock winding down. Team B had used their timeouts, but knew there was enough time left in the half that Team A would either have to punt or take a delay of game penalty. Team A decided to take the penalty. The ref stopped the clock while the penalty was marked off, then started it again once the ball was set. Time ran out to end the half. Team A ran to their locker room, while Team B's head coach engaged the ref in an animated conversation.

My question is, does the clock start after all offensive penalties are imposed?
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Old Tue Oct 25, 2011, 09:08am
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After a delay of game penalty, the clock starts on the snap, and there are no exceptions to that rule...so it looks like they did get this one wrong.
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Old Tue Oct 25, 2011, 10:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcl1127 View Post
After a delay of game penalty, the clock starts on the snap, and there are no exceptions to that rule
Not exactly. That's true only in cases like this, where the penalty was for illegally attempting to consume time.
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Old Tue Oct 25, 2011, 10:59am
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Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
Not exactly. That's true only in cases like this, where the penalty was for illegally attempting to consume time.
Rule 3-5 Art. 3 states "The clock shall start with the snap or when any free kick is touched other than first touching by K, if the clock was stopped because:

i. The penalty for a delay of game foul is accepted."

there are a - j as well, but I only put in the appropriate reference.


So I think it is fairly clear that the clock always starts with the snap after a delay of game foul.

This is a question on our yearly test in IL, and the answer is always that after a delay of game foul, the clock shall start on the snap with no exceptions. There is no special working about illegally attempting to consume time...or if there is it is no where to be found in my 2011 rule book...
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Old Tue Oct 25, 2011, 11:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
Not exactly. That's true only in cases like this, where the penalty was for illegally attempting to consume time.
Where do you get this invented understanding of the rule? The rule is VERY clear, and doesn't have exceptions or conditions. This is in the "the clock starts on the XXX" section.
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Old Tue Oct 25, 2011, 12:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
Not exactly. That's true only in cases like this, where the penalty was for illegally attempting to consume time.
That is exactly why the clock will start with a snap after a delay of game foul. So the team cannot illegally consume time.
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Old Tue Oct 25, 2011, 03:52pm
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NCAA: if Team A was in a scrimmage kick formation while taking a delay, the clock would have to start on the snap. Otherwise, it would revert to the discretion of the R as to whether Team A was engaging in unfair tactics. If the latter, it would depend on the time available, position, B's ability to return, etc. I would probably lean toward starting it on the snap unless the time is near 0 and we are deep in Team B's territory.
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Old Tue Oct 25, 2011, 06:30pm
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Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
Where do you get this invented understanding of the rule? The rule is VERY clear, and doesn't have exceptions or conditions. This is in the "the clock starts on the XXX" section.
3-4-3h: "The clock shall start with the snap...if the clock was stopped because:...A team attempts to consume time illegally."
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Old Tue Oct 25, 2011, 06:42pm
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Yes that's ALSO true Robert, but that rule is for other methods of consumming time that may not result in a delay. An accepted delay of game is specifically mentioned elsewhere. DOn't read 1/2 the rule or rules.
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Old Tue Oct 25, 2011, 06:48pm
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Originally Posted by Ia-Ref View Post
That is exactly why the clock will start with a snap after a delay of game foul. So the team cannot illegally consume time.
But a delay of game foul can occur because a team tries to conserve time illegally too. There are various things a participant might do to stop the clock which are not otherwise illegal but can be penalized under 3-6-2.

There's also the general coverage under 3-4-6.
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Old Tue Oct 25, 2011, 10:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
But a delay of game foul can occur because a team tries to conserve time illegally too. There are various things a participant might do to stop the clock which are not otherwise illegal but can be penalized under 3-6-2.

There's also the general coverage under 3-4-6.
You're wrong, Robert. 3-5-3 covers DOG and it ALWAYS starts on the snap.

3-6-2 and 3-4-6 cover things like intentional grounding and repeated violations, such as a false start to illegal consume time.

The clock shall start with the snap or when any free kick is touched other than first touching by K, if the clock was stopped because:
i. The penalty for a delay of game foul is accepted."


...is perfectly clear. Always start on the snap.
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Old Wed Oct 26, 2011, 12:22am
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Then are violations of sections 3-4 and 3-6 simply not called "delay of game"? Are they signaled differently?
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Old Wed Oct 26, 2011, 09:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
But a delay of game foul can occur because a team tries to conserve time illegally too. There are various things a participant might do to stop the clock which are not otherwise illegal but can be penalized under 3-6-2.

There's also the general coverage under 3-4-6.
Neither of these. However, defensive player touching or moving the ball first after the official has placed it and before the offense has approached the ball would be a delay of game foul designed to conserve time. Doesn't mean the initial rule you were quoted earlier is wrong - but the referee can, in his discretion, start the clock at the ready in this situation - albeit using a completely different rule to do so.
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Old Wed Oct 26, 2011, 01:22pm
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So why does the rule book say violations of 3-6 (including the type cited above) are penalized as "Delay of game" and given signal 21? Some of those are fouls to consume time, and some could be fouls to either conserve or consume time. (3-6-2d is about negligence re gear like mouth guards, and although it does delay the game, does not appear to be about deliberately doing so, so that's a kind of 3rd category because it's not tactical.)

If 3-5 says the clock starts on the snap for a scrimmage following a delay of game penalty, that would appear to include, perversely, penalties for illegally conserving time as per 3-6-2 c & f; surely it does not, I hope! Some of you are writing that those violations are not treated the same, yet they're given the same name and signal. Is there some other provision of the rules which is to be read as an exception to those clauses of 3-6-2? In that case I sure wish Fed would've referenced them there as such!
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Old Wed Oct 26, 2011, 05:35pm
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Robert, there's a huge pine tree in my yard. It's probably 10' in diameter. You're welcome to come over and argue with it if you like.
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