safety or touchdown

[ajjl22]

This is a play my crew has had a disagreement about for a couple of weeks (it is not even a play that happened to us, just a hypothetical one of us brought up in a pre-game).


Situation: 4th and 15 from K’s 10. the ball is snapped and goes over K1’s head into the endzone. K1 and R1 simultaneously recover the ball in the endzone. What is the end result of the play?

My ruling would be safety, but our BJ and U think it should be a TD for R. If you could include a rules citation or a case play I would appreciate it.

Thanks

[mbyron]

A kick that is jointly possessed belongs to R (6-1-5, 6-2-7), but your situation describes a muffed snap and not a kick. So a joint recovery belongs to K. The result of your play is a safety (7-4-3c).

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbyron

A kick that is jointly possessed belongs to R (6-1-5, 6-2-7), but your situation describes a muffed snap and not a kick. So a joint recovery belongs to K. The result of your play is a safety (7-4-3c).

Right -- i.e. I know what you mean -- but the designations "K" & "R" shouldn't even be used because there was no kick. The ball at the moment of joint recovery belonged to the offense.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Right -- i.e. I know what you mean -- but the designations "K" & "R" shouldn't even be used because there was no kick. The ball at the moment of joint recovery belonged to the offense.

If you're going to be picky about that, you should be picky about the term 'offense', which is defined as the team in possession of the ball. During a scramble for a loose ball, there is no offense. Team A was last in possession, which gives them possession after a joint recovery.

[Texas Aggie]

That's why we use Team A and B, not offense and defense or kicking team or receiving team.

NCAA: safety.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

That's why we use Team A and B, not offense and defense or kicking team or receiving team.

NCAA: safety.

OK, but you can't state 'all but one' correctly without distinguishing the offense from A.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbyron

If you're going to be picky about that, you should be picky about the term 'offense', which is defined as the team in possession of the ball. During a scramble for a loose ball, there is no offense. Team A was last in possession, which gives them possession after a joint recovery.

That's not true. The offense remains the offense until there's a change of team possession. Team possession continues while the ball is loose.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

That's not true. The offense remains the offense until there's a change of team possession.

Actually, there is always an offense and always a defense. The offense is whichever team is in possession of the ball. This is an important distinction for all-but-one / 3-and-1 enforcement.

[cdoug]

Originally Posted by mbyron

A kick that is jointly possessed belongs to R (6-1-5, 6-2-7), but your situation describes a muffed snap and not a kick. So a joint recovery belongs to K. The result of your play is a safety (7-4-3c).

My initial reaction was that you're right, and I still think that, but am having an issue with the wording of the rule. So, if someone can help me wrap my head around this I'd appreciate it.

7-4-3(c): ...The ball belongs to the passing or fumbling team unless lost after fourth down if a fumble or backward pass: (c) becomes dead inbounds while opponents are in joint possession.

The "after fourth down" part is what I think I'm having the issue with. This is not "after fourth down" because it's still part of the fourth down play?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by cdoug

My initial reaction was that you're right, and I still think that, but am having an issue with the wording of the rule. So, if someone can help me wrap my head around this I'd appreciate it.

7-4-3(c): ...The ball belongs to the passing or fumbling team unless lost after fourth down if a fumble or backward pass: (c) becomes dead inbounds while opponents are in joint possession.

The "after fourth down" part is what I think I'm having the issue with. This is not "after fourth down" because it's still part of the fourth down play?

Of course. What down is it when all this happens? Fourth. Is fourth after fourth? No (unless it's Col vs Missou).

Obviously, if they recover the football on fourth down (and don't meet the LTG), then AFTER fourth down they will not have possession of the ball.

[cdoug]

Ok. That's what I was thinking but got hung up on the wording.

Thanks!

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by ajjl22

This is a play my crew has had a disagreement about for a couple of weeks (it is not even a play that happened to us, just a hypothetical one of us brought up in a pre-game).


Situation: 4th and 15 from K’s 10. the ball is snapped and goes over K1’s head into the endzone. K1 and R1 simultaneously recover the ball in the endzone. What is the end result of the play?

My ruling would be safety, but our BJ and U think it should be a TD for R. If you could include a rules citation or a case play I would appreciate it.

Thanks

CANADIAN RULING:

Safety.