PAT question

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Our league, the TCYFL, uses IHSA/NFHS rules modified largely for safety and participation. We are one of the few Featherweight teams (9-10 year olds under 100 pounds) who kick PATs. It is an advantage since they award two points for the conversion. The TCYFL rule books states this:


My question is this: Is it legal for the defense to block the guards into the center in an attempt to collapse the middle and block the kick? I have seen this enforced a couple ways this season. One crew insists that the center is sacred, as he is not allowed to move and thus defend himself. Another contends that the defense can run through his gap as long as they attempt to engage the guard rather than the center (wink, wink).

I appreciate your interps, as this will help us defend the PAT properly from both sides of the ball. Thank you in advance!

As someone who has worked over 600 games in the TCYFL in the last 5 years, I still can't wrap my head around why rushing by the defense is allowed at the featherweight level for some scrimmage kicks and not others.

That said, most of the guys I know and work with won't be overly technical here. Rarely does the center stay perfectly still (how unnatural is that?), so he's rarely in need of the complete hands-off protection the rule affords him. As long as you are not hitting the center with a direct charge or intentionally initiating malicious contact against him while he's perfectly still and defenseless (yourself or with an offensive player being blocked), you're probably not going to see many calls here. In fact, absent a direct charge the most likely initial outcome is a "talking to".

If I remember correctly, you coach a MAC/PAC team. You may be seeing some inconsistency here because you have two different groups of officials (assigned by different assignors) calling your games depending on the game site. I'm not saying that it is happening, but officials may be getting conflicting information on how this should be called by different assignment chairmen.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

As someone who has worked over 600 games in the TCYFL in the last 5 years, I still can't wrap my head around why rushing by the defense is allowed at the featherweight level for some scrimmage kicks and not others.

That said, most of the guys I know and work with won't be overly technical here. Rarely does the center stay perfectly still (how unnatural is that?), so he's rarely in need of the complete hands-off protection the rule affords him. As long as you are not hitting the center with a direct charge or intentionally initiating malicious contact against him while he's perfectly still and defenseless (yourself or with an offensive player being blocked), you're probably not going to see many calls here. In fact, absent a direct charge the most likely initial outcome is a "talking to".

If I remember correctly, you coach a MAC/PAC team. You may be seeing some inconsistency here because you have two different groups of officials (assigned by different assignors) calling your games depending on the game site. I'm not saying that it is happening, but officials may be getting conflicting information on how this should be called by different assignment chairmen.

Brett,
I sent the question to TCYFL through our liaison. We have had two home and two away games so far and are on the road again this week. The TCYFL crews have been pretty good this year. I would imagine that we see newer officials more than not and some of you would criticize the way they handle the game. All in all, the guys do a great job. All coaches can find fault with crews when things don't go their way. I have a unique perspective having worked baseball in our state for a couple decades plus. They will make mistakes and miss calls. My intent here is to make it easier for them by teaching our players EXACTLY what to do. Thanks again for working so hard for youth football in our area.

Mike

[InsideTheStripe]

It will be interesting to see what you hear back, Mike. Next time you run a question up the proverbial flag pole, can you find out what the foul and penalty are for a center that does move after the snap on a FG/PAT in a featherweight game.

[MD Longhorn]

I will echo ... local rules are made by fools. This one is not horrible, but even as simple as it is, anyone can see the problem it creates.

My favorite from a local league is "Linebackers cannot blitz". Multiple issues with that:

1) No official definition of "linebacker"
2) No rule stating how many linebackers there must be or a maximum on how many linemen there are.
3) What does CANNOT mean. Unable? No... unallowed - ok ...but there's no penalty listed. So what do the officials do? Say, "stop that?" and move on?
4) More importantly, define "blitz" - ask 10 people and you get 10 different answers as to what a "linebacker" may do (again... what's a linebacker ... by rule at least?)

So... undefined players are not allowed to, but not penalized for, doing something equally undefined.

[HLin NC]

Wow, here in WNC teams just go for two at that age. #@!!, most middle schools go for two.

Not a particularly well thought out local rule. What's wrong with the Fed rule?

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

Wow, here in WNC teams just go for two at that age. #@!!, most middle schools go for two.

Not a particularly well thought out local rule. What's wrong with the Fed rule?

In the league referenced, they flip the kicking and "going for it" points so you earn 2 for kicking.

At the level mentioned the center gets special "protection" on EVERY play in so that he cannot be contacted until the quarterback has had the opportunity to receive the ball. I think there are two competing interests at work here. First, the recognition that the majority of the centers at this age won't be able to long snap if they are worried about righting themselves for contact (no defensive rush is allowed on punts). Secondly, the league doesn't want teams to be able to score without a defense rush at this level. This rule is what they came up with...

Personally, I'd prefer that the use the same rules used at the level below this. No rushing on any scrimmage kicks. Kicker must kick from at least 5 yards behind the LOS. Offense and defense hold position until the ball is kicked.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

In the league referenced, they flip the kicking and "going for it" points so you earn 2 for kicking.

I know of at least a couple leagues where you get 3 for a kick, 2 for a pass, and 1 for a run.

6 man football originated the 2 for a FG, 1 for a TD rule on the try. But 6 man also had 4 for a FG during general play, and a crossbar 9' off the ground and 25' wide.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I will echo ... local rules are made by fools. This one is not horrible, but even as simple as it is, anyone can see the problem it creates.

My favorite from a local league is "Linebackers cannot blitz". Multiple issues with that:

1) No official definition of "linebacker"
2) No rule stating how many linebackers there must be or a maximum on how many linemen there are.
3) What does CANNOT mean. Unable? No... unallowed - ok ...but there's no penalty listed. So what do the officials do? Say, "stop that?" and move on?
4) More importantly, define "blitz" - ask 10 people and you get 10 different answers as to what a "linebacker" may do (again... what's a linebacker ... by rule at least?)

So... undefined players are not allowed to, but not penalized for, doing something equally undefined.

Definitely one of my least favorite rules, along with the "starting backfield must be replaced when leading by over 20 points" rule. How do I know who the "starting backfield" is? Does that include receivers, quarterbacks, running backs, or some combination thereof?

And then there's the "nobody weighing more then X pounds can run the ball" rule. Am I supposed to bring a scale with me to the field?

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

And then there's the "nobody weighing more then X pounds can run the ball" rule. Am I supposed to bring a scale with me to the field?

Amen! Every year we get into this with coaches for 6th/7th grade games. (There is a huge coaching turnover at this age for some reason....)

Those 150# or more are supposed to have a white/black stripe on their helmet to let us know. Seems like every season some coach argues with us that a kid is over 150# and doesn't have the stripe. And every season we tell them to bring it up with their league administrator.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

And then there's the "nobody weighing more then X pounds can run the ball" rule. Am I supposed to bring a scale with me to the field?

I'm not a "real" football official (baseball and basketball are my sports) but I have refereed a local youth football league for several years now. We have a set weight limit in each division that limits the ball carriers to a certain weight. When the players pick up their equipment at the start of the season, they are weighed and if they are over the limit we put a piece of red duct tape across the back of their helmet. They also wear red mouthpieces instead of black. The "over" players can't line up at any skill positions on offense. (They can be anywhere on defense)

As for the "linebackers can't blitz" rule, we have a set definition of linebackers. Every team has to play a 5-2 defense, so the two middle linebackers can't blitz and neither can anyone in the secondary. As long as they're not moving forward before or on the snap, I don't consider it to be a blitz. May not be how everyone sees it, but it usually works. We don't really have a penalty for it, so it's more of a "knock that off" warning, which has always worked. If they really blitz hard and blow a play up before it has a chance to develop, we will play the down over.

We don't have any type of kicking in our league. Drives start on the 20 yard line and punts are 20 yards. (Field is only 70 yards long) 3rd/4th graders can only line up in certain formations on offense and can't run reverses or halfback passes. 5th/6th graders can line up in pretty much any formation and can run reverses and halfback passes. I'm with you guys in that some local rules are silly, but if you do it right and stay consistent, it can work well.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by zm1283

I'm not a "real" football official (baseball and basketball are my sports) but I have refereed a local youth football league for several years now.

I'll give you credit, zm, you're coming around from your original position on football officials.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Definitely one of my least favorite rules, along with the "starting backfield must be replaced when leading by over 20 points" rule. How do I know who the "starting backfield" is? Does that include receivers, quarterbacks, running backs, or some combination thereof?

That's why AFAIK those rules are not enforced by the game officials. The league has someone else keep track of that who can give a warning, and sanctions are imposed after the game.

It's like if somebody sneaks a ringer into a varsity game. The game officials have nothing to do with that, it's up to the association the schools belong to.

And then there's the "nobody weighing more then X pounds can run the ball" rule. Am I supposed to bring a scale with me to the field?

That one is enforced by game officials. The overweight players have a strip or "X" of tape on their helmets, and you blow it dead when one of them gets possession of the ball.

Some leagues have weigh-in before the game, and yes, they do bring a scale to the field. Other organiz'ns have weigh-in only once a year, at registr'n.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

That one is enforced by game officials. The overweight players have a strip or "X" of tape on their helmets, and you blow it dead when one of them gets possession of the ball.

Some leagues have weigh-in before the game, and yes, they do bring a scale to the field. Other organiz'ns have weigh-in only once a year, at registr'n.

Perhaps. But we aren't there at the weigh-in. And we aren't there when the tape is (or is not) put on the helmet. If the coach wants to cheat and not put a sticker on the helmet of a big kid, I'm not going to pull out a scale on the field and weight the kid. We can only enforce what we see. And if we see a kid running with no tape/sticker on the helmet and he's bowling people over....shrug.