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Old Sat Sep 17, 2011, 01:42pm
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Question Drop kick for kickoff

The drop kick comes at 1:32 in the video:
Pulaski Academy Onside Kicks vs Cabot - Sept 9, 2011 - YouTube

Per rules 2-24-5/6 and 6-1-2, I have no problem with using a drop kick for a free kick, and the drop kick occurs at the free kick line.

Where I am curious is the first player running up, picking up the ball from the tee, and backward passing the ball to the kicker. I ask only because I have never seen this before and would like feedback.
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Old Sat Sep 17, 2011, 01:57pm
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Once the spot is designated, the ball cannot be moved. Moving the ball in this way would be a free kick infraction, 5 yards penalty.
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Old Sat Sep 17, 2011, 02:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef View Post
Once the spot is designated, the ball cannot be moved. Moving the ball in this way would be a free kick infraction, 5 yards penalty.
I definitely see your point on this, and I think I would call it a FKI. Playing devil's advocate, though, I will submit the following:

Rule 6-1-2: "Once designated, K must kick from that spot."
It does not say anything about the ball being moved, and if you stop the video at the point of contact for the kick, he is actually kicking the ball right at the original kicking tee. So, we could say K kicked the ball from the designated spot.
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Old Sat Sep 17, 2011, 07:16pm
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Isn't drop kicking the ball from within 1 yard of the spot considered kicking from the spot? I do think the player who tossed him the ball was offside, though.
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Old Sat Sep 17, 2011, 08:48pm
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Originally Posted by glyphrunner View Post
I definitely see your point on this, and I think I would call it a FKI. Playing devil's advocate, though, I will submit the following:

Rule 6-1-2: "Once designated, K must kick from that spot."
It does not say anything about the ball being moved, and if you stop the video at the point of contact for the kick, he is actually kicking the ball right at the original kicking tee. So, we could say K kicked the ball from the designated spot.

I've read that argument and don't buy it. The spot is on the tee, on the ground. That's the spot he designated when he tee'd up. Drop kicking it is not kicking it from the tee where he spotted it.

Further, as Robert said, when the player who doesn't kick the ball touches it, he has also committed a refraction.
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Old Sun Sep 18, 2011, 11:59am
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Originally Posted by BktBallRef View Post
I've read that argument and don't buy it. The spot is on the tee, on the ground. That's the spot he designated when he tee'd up. Drop kicking it is not kicking it from the tee where he spotted it.

Further, as Robert said, when the player who doesn't kick the ball touches it, he has also committed a refraction.
That's not what I meant. At the time the ball was kicked, the player who passed the ball to him looked like he was ahead of the ball.
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Old Thu Sep 22, 2011, 08:30pm
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If it is considered that this play might be legal (ignoring the possible offside by the kid who starts it off), then perhaps we should take it to its absurd conclusion. How much of this messing about with throwing the ball from player to player WOULD be allowable? Would it be allowed to be thrown backwards by A1 to A2, then forwards by A2 to A3 and then kicked? What if there were two forward "passes"? What if it was batted to the eventual kicker?
Would the only consideration be to kill the play if they exceeded the 25 second count?

I'm not a Fed Rules expert, we use NCAA over here in Europe. I can't find a specific rule in my 2010 Fed book (or indeed in my NCAA book) that I could say specifically outlaws this play. But for me, common sense deems it illegal. My gut feeling is that once the ball is blown ready, if they want to drop kick it then the kid who kicks it better be the only one who handles it. But I have no rule reference to back that up.
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 06:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef View Post
I've read that argument and don't buy it. The spot is on the tee, on the ground. That's the spot he designated when he tee'd up. Drop kicking it is not kicking it from the tee where he spotted it.

Further, as Robert said, when the player who doesn't kick the ball touches it, he has also committed a refraction.
Devil's advocate: can a team not change their mind about using a tee after the RFP or some other delineating point?
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 01:59pm
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Originally Posted by With_Two_Flakes View Post
If it is considered that this play might be legal (ignoring the possible offside by the kid who starts it off), then perhaps we should take it to its absurd conclusion. How much of this messing about with throwing the ball from player to player WOULD be allowable? Would it be allowed to be thrown backwards by A1 to A2, then forwards by A2 to A3 and then kicked? What if there were two forward "passes"? What if it was batted to the eventual kicker?
The ball is dead until it's kicked, and any amount or type of handling it prior to that is legal. Same if they want to polish it, pray to it, etc.
Quote:
Would the only consideration be to kill the play if they exceeded the 25 second count?
Yes. It's like a drop-out in Rugby Union, where teams sometimes do pass the ball around to find an opening, subject only to the referee's decision that they're delaying the game.
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 02:09pm
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Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
The ball is dead until it's kicked, and any amount or type of handling it prior to that is legal. Same if they want to polish it, pray to it, etc.
Citation? The snapper cannot handle the (dead) ball prior to snapping it in just any manner he wishes.
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 02:39pm
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Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
Citation? The snapper cannot handle the (dead) ball prior to snapping it in just any manner he wishes.
What's that Latin phrase that translates as something like, "The mention of one works to the omission of the other"?

There are rules regarding motion of the ball prior to the snap. There's a rule regarding choosing the spot of the ball for a place kick used as a free kick. The rules makers know how to write restrictions, so why isn't it enough for you that their silence on this matter means there's no restriction?
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 02:44pm
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I THINK (but am not 100% convinced) that a drop kick for a free kick would generally be legal... what made this one illegal was the selection of a spot on the tee, then the movement from that spot and not kicking it from that spot (close... but not THAT spot, right on the tee).
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 02:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
What's that Latin phrase that translates as something like, "The mention of one works to the omission of the other"?

There are rules regarding motion of the ball prior to the snap. There's a rule regarding choosing the spot of the ball for a place kick used as a free kick. The rules makers know how to write restrictions, so why isn't it enough for you that their silence on this matter means there's no restriction?
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 02:56pm
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Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
I THINK (but am not 100% convinced) that a drop kick for a free kick would generally be legal... what made this one illegal was the selection of a spot on the tee, then the movement from that spot and not kicking it from that spot (close... but not THAT spot, right on the tee).
Fed 6-1-2 says that when a punt is used for a free kick, it must be from within 1 step behind K's line. Seeing no other standard, I would say that for a drop kick, within 1 step behind the spot, is the spot.
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 05:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
Fed 6-1-2 says that when a punt is used for a free kick, it must be from within 1 step behind K's line. Seeing no other standard, I would say that for a drop kick, within 1 step behind the spot, is the spot.
But there is another standard. 2-24-5 and 2-24-6 specifically state that a drop kick may be used for a kickoff.

After reading the article about the Pulaski Academy coach, I'm not surprised that he has an intimate knowledge of the rules and knows how to use every word in the book to his advantage. If the other coaches don't know the rules, that's their own fault.
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