Drop kick for kickoff

[With_Two_Flakes]

If it is considered that this play might be legal (ignoring the possible offside by the kid who starts it off), then perhaps we should take it to its absurd conclusion. How much of this messing about with throwing the ball from player to player WOULD be allowable? Would it be allowed to be thrown backwards by A1 to A2, then forwards by A2 to A3 and then kicked? What if there were two forward "passes"? What if it was batted to the eventual kicker?
Would the only consideration be to kill the play if they exceeded the 25 second count?

I'm not a Fed Rules expert, we use NCAA over here in Europe. I can't find a specific rule in my 2010 Fed book (or indeed in my NCAA book) that I could say specifically outlaws this play. But for me, common sense deems it illegal. My gut feeling is that once the ball is blown ready, if they want to drop kick it then the kid who kicks it better be the only one who handles it. But I have no rule reference to back that up.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by With_Two_Flakes

If it is considered that this play might be legal (ignoring the possible offside by the kid who starts it off), then perhaps we should take it to its absurd conclusion. How much of this messing about with throwing the ball from player to player WOULD be allowable? Would it be allowed to be thrown backwards by A1 to A2, then forwards by A2 to A3 and then kicked? What if there were two forward "passes"? What if it was batted to the eventual kicker?

The ball is dead until it's kicked, and any amount or type of handling it prior to that is legal. Same if they want to polish it, pray to it, etc.

Would the only consideration be to kill the play if they exceeded the 25 second count?

Yes. It's like a drop-out in Rugby Union, where teams sometimes do pass the ball around to find an opening, subject only to the referee's decision that they're delaying the game.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

The ball is dead until it's kicked, and any amount or type of handling it prior to that is legal. Same if they want to polish it, pray to it, etc.

Citation? The snapper cannot handle the (dead) ball prior to snapping it in just any manner he wishes.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Citation? The snapper cannot handle the (dead) ball prior to snapping it in just any manner he wishes.

What's that Latin phrase that translates as something like, "The mention of one works to the omission of the other"?

There are rules regarding motion of the ball prior to the snap. There's a rule regarding choosing the spot of the ball for a place kick used as a free kick. The rules makers know how to write restrictions, so why isn't it enough for you that their silence on this matter means there's no restriction?

[MD Longhorn]

I THINK (but am not 100% convinced) that a drop kick for a free kick would generally be legal... what made this one illegal was the selection of a spot on the tee, then the movement from that spot and not kicking it from that spot (close... but not THAT spot, right on the tee).

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I THINK (but am not 100% convinced) that a drop kick for a free kick would generally be legal... what made this one illegal was the selection of a spot on the tee, then the movement from that spot and not kicking it from that spot (close... but not THAT spot, right on the tee).

Fed 6-1-2 says that when a punt is used for a free kick, it must be from within 1 step behind K's line. Seeing no other standard, I would say that for a drop kick, within 1 step behind the spot, is the spot.

[jchamp]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Fed 6-1-2 says that when a punt is used for a free kick, it must be from within 1 step behind K's line. Seeing no other standard, I would say that for a drop kick, within 1 step behind the spot, is the spot.

But there is another standard. 2-24-5 and 2-24-6 specifically state that a drop kick may be used for a kickoff.

After reading the article about the Pulaski Academy coach, I'm not surprised that he has an intimate knowledge of the rules and knows how to use every word in the book to his advantage. If the other coaches don't know the rules, that's their own fault.

[golfdesigner]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Fed 6-1-2 says that when a punt is used for a free kick, it must be from within 1 step behind K's line. Seeing no other standard, I would say that for a drop kick, within 1 step behind the spot, is the spot.

I think I have to disagree with Robert, when one looks at the actual language of the rule, read the rest of the rule where you find the reference to within 1-yard, it says the free kick must be made ON the free kick line. There is no option. ON is ON not near.

Rule 6
Section 1 The Kickoff and Other Free Kicks
ART. 1 . . . For any free kick, a free-kick line, corresponding to a scrimmage
line, is established for each team. These lines are always 10 yards apart. Unless
moved by a penalty, K’s free-kick line is:
a. Its 40-yard line for a kickoff.
b. Its 20-yard line after a safety.
c. The yard line through the spot of the catch after a fair catch.
d. The yard line through the spot of an awarded fair catch.
ART. 2 . . . A free kick shall be made from any point between the hash marks
and on K’s free-kick line. A punt may not be used for a free kick other than after
a safety. Once designated, K must kick from that spot. When a punt is used following
a safety, the ball must be kicked within one step behind K’s free-kick line.
In an emergency, such as a pool of water on K’s free-kick line, the referee has
authority to move the ball to a playable line. in which case, both free-kick lines are
moved to compensate.

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

What's that Latin phrase that translates as something like, "The mention of one works to the omission of the other"?

There are rules regarding motion of the ball prior to the snap. There's a rule regarding choosing the spot of the ball for a place kick used as a free kick. The rules makers know how to write restrictions, so why isn't it enough for you that their silence on this matter means there's no restriction?

Expressio Unius Est Exclusio Alterius

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

There's a rule regarding choosing the spot of the ball for a place kick used as a free kick. The rules makers know how to write restrictions, so why isn't it enough for you that their silence on this matter means there's no restriction?

But there is a restriction. The kicker may cross the neutral zone when he kicks the ball, but otherwise no encroachment is permitted during a free kick. To pick up the ball would constitute encroachment.

Your ignoring this restriction does not render it silent.

[jchamp]

Originally Posted by mbyron

But there is a restriction. The kicker may cross the neutral zone when he kicks the ball, but otherwise no encroachment is permitted during a free kick. To pick up the ball would constitute encroachment.

K is also permitted a holder who may be in the neutral zone. If the holder were to stand over the ball and then toss it back for it to be used as a drop kick, would the holder then still be encroaching?

What if the holder tosses it back and then moves backwards to a point between the 40 and the drop kick location? Or to a point completely behind the ball and kicker? What if he does these things before the RFP? (This last one is obviously legal.)

I'm mentioning these because with as much press as these things get, it is just a matter of time before you find it happening in your own games. If you don't discuss them in your associations, and make clear what your enforcement will be until it's in the case book, you'll end up with Dwight Shrute on your sideline busting the play because "he thought" something that wasn't correct.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jchamp

K is also permitted a holder who may be in the neutral zone. If the holder were to stand over the ball and then toss it back for it to be used as a drop kick, would the holder then still be encroaching?

I agree that these kicks need to be addressed. I also recognize the exception allowed for a holder to encroach without penalty.

However, a holder by definition holds the ball, and his permission to encroach covers only the holding of the ball: he may not be a runner or passer. So, no, I don't regard the play you reference as legal.

As I read the rule, once the ball is placed on a tee, the next legal touch by K must either be a hold or a kick. Intentionally removing the ball from the tee is not legal.

When NFHS revises rule 6 and makes these kicks either clearly legal or clearly illegal, or when I get definitive guidance from the state, I will be happy to conform to that rule or guidance.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbyron

But there is a restriction. The kicker may cross the neutral zone when he kicks the ball, but otherwise no encroachment is permitted during a free kick. To pick up the ball would constitute encroachment.

Only if putting it down to begin with is also!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Only if putting it down to begin with is also!

Wrong again, as the neutral zone does not exist then.